Apologies if this has already been proposed.

If the Tholians could only build 2 webcasters a year, their Command Module production could easily outstrip their ability to provide Web Casters.

Might be good to either build Photon and Disruptor versions of the COM.

We might also want to give the COMs an "Option Refit" after something like Y190 where the nose weapon could be any of 4 choices: Web Caster, Disruptor, Photon, or P-1. These would be the only allowable choices.

If we want to be a little more confusing, we could allow the P-1 and Disruptor FH arcs instead of FA.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Since the photon can only be FA I would suggest that the others have to be FA as well BUT the Disr and P-1 could have the expanded FH arc for a cost (1 or 2 BPV) and that the FH option be available some time later than the introduction of the COM option mount.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:08 pm: Edit

That would make sense.

The COM's forward mount wouldn't necessarily be built to allow a wider arc than FA since the web caster would never need it. It's only over here that anyone would want anything else.

We could do a PCOM and DCOM starting either right after the 312th's arrival (maybe new COMs were needed with no WCs to put in them) or about Y190 (when COM production could possibly start exceeding WC production)

We could then do an "Limited option refit" starting about 196. COMs with limited option mounts would have the FH arcs for the P-1s and Disrs.

Be a nice little detail to carry over to X1 technoogy too.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Actually, this is a already covered in (R7.61) "The Tholians would be able to replace a destroyed CoM as it is about the size of a PC. ... In this case, however, the WC would have to be replaced by 2 disrupters (until WCs could be produced)."

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Really?

Cool.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 04:03 pm: Edit

The only thing is, I'm not clear on why the Tholians would want to build a lot of Command Modules, since they explicitly cannot build Neo-Tholian rear hulls.
Not long ago, I submitted a proposal to ADB about an SSD/fiction story/two historical scenarios involving a Tholian Light Dreadnought (or perhaps Fast BCH) that could roughly (though not precisely) be imagined as a Tholian D-hull but with a Command Module in front instead of the third Patrol Corvette. The CM was actually supposed to be one of the two "extra" CMs that arrived with the 312th. As far as I know those two extra CMs have never been accounted for, though a plausible guess would be that they were used as replacements when CMs got wrecked in combat but the rear hull was salvageable.

In any event, in my proposed story the Tholians are able to create a Fast ship using a CM and two PC hulls after events in Operation Nutcracker and the Seltorian attacks convince them of the desirability of the capability. The ship was a built as a back-up design in case X-tech proved unworkable. The ship was a success but only one was ever built because X-tech did in fact prove workable, and was more cost effective.

SPP was not convinced my proposed ship was possible, based on examination of the minis. But as far as I know, no definitive ruling has been made. As I understand it, Module R11 or R12 is going to be "Unique Ships" or something like that. I may resubmit my idea for that Module, though the Modules don't generally include fiction stories.

But getting back to the idea of "option mount" Command Modules, a CM by itself is not very useful since it has too little power and its shields are weak. So the idea requires some sort of rear hull to attach it to for the idea to be viable. I believe the Steves are pretty emphatic that the Tholians cannot build new Neo-Tholian rear hulls. So this idea needs to be pushed either as a configurable weapons option for existing Neo-Tholian ships, or somehow the CM must be fittable to PC-based ships.

I think it's clear from R7.61 that the Tholians could build these. But for the discussion to go any further, we need to explore why they would. And that is essentially a question about what these CMs are being fitted to. Though I liked John Trauger's "Arrowhead" Tholian DW, I didn't care for the "Option B" that based a DW on a CM. It seems to me the idea requires a package of at least cruiser size to work. But no doubt others will disagree.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 08:20 pm: Edit

The Plan-B Design functions pretty much like a the rear hull of a Klingon to the COM as the boom, except the COM had so much hull in it I couldn't leave any in the DD rear hull. This problem is why there is a Light Command Module for SC4 Old Galaxy Tholians.

I debated whether to use the LCM and I even played with a SSD using one, but I ultimately decided I liked the COM version better. (note that the SSD is in violation of at least three rules of Tholian shipbuilding in addition to having way too much hull.)

As to why the Tholians might like to build lots of COMs: They would have a use for them. My DW would be one such use. With a little work, the COM could possibly be used to agument the existing Tholian capitol ships to make them a little closer to equivalent to their neighbors.

That's another reason.

If no reason is found then the tholians don't bother building lots of COMs but the occasional Disr-COM or Photon-Com could be a rude-surprise, epecially when dialing with the Andros, who aren't as bothered by web.

By Orman J. Hoffman II (Ojh2) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 08:38 pm: Edit

The Tholians might build COMs in order to cobble together larger ships that are more stable. However, they probably could not afford to redesign their DD hulls until after the Andro War.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:39 pm: Edit

John;

I agree with a lot of what you say, but not all of it. Specifically, I still believe that the concept doesn't really work for a DW, you need a cruiser or larger. I also am dubious that the Tholians could use a Command Module to augment existing designs. I think a large Patrol-Corvette based ship using a Command Module would have to be designed for that function. The Light Dreadnought/Fast BCH I mentioned above wasn't intended to be a D-hull with the forward PC ripped out and a COM put in its place. That was intended to be a way of visualizing approximately what the thing would look like. But I had always intended that it be a ship designed from the ground up to be based on 2 PCs and a COM. And even at that it may well be impossible.

The idea of a Tholian NCL/NCA/NDN replacing its standard COM with one with different weapons is interesting because once the alternate version is built, the ship can swap out Command Modules without requiring a ship yard. The old COM just detaches itself and the new one attaches itself. If swapping COMs required a shipyard I don't think the concept would be worthwhile since it takes an important warship out of action for a while, and the Tholians don't have a lot of shipyard capacity anyway. But since the Neo-Tholian ship can swap COMs all by itself the idea of customizing its weapon suite for a particular mission has merit.

Just my .02 quatloos worth.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:59 pm: Edit

IIRC, swapping COMs could be done during a scenario. Regardless of how well (or not) they function, COMs were designed to operate independently. It's fairly easy for them to detach and reattach.

As for your design, well, the actual D hull (IIRC) is primarily an angle shape with the forward PC at the vertex. I can see why there'd be problems replacing it with a COM.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:19 pm: Edit

John;

You're correct. The Tholians can detach/attach COMs during the course of a scenario. But it's dangerous to do so because the COM cannot raise its own shields until 32 impulses after separation (G12.92). The rear hull's shields don't drop on separation, however.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit

..which means they can mix and match COMs on a whim and that's all I was saying.