Federation B-52 Bombers, although restricted to slow speeds(early bombers had slow tactical speeds and even later designs(B-1 and B2) were restricted to slow strategic speeds due to the limits imposed by the Warp packs)(See rule J14.225)(Year 180)still have an inherent design feature, the Weapons Bay.

This proposal is to introduce a four space module for use by bombers to Maximize the ECM ability up to the J14.231 limits on fighter pods while minimizing the decrease in speed due to J14.231.

the ECM/WBM is treated as "lent" ECM points (that the bomber is lending to itself). the ECM/WBM ECM points generated by the module can not be lent to any other bomber or unit.

self generated ECM points (including "built in" points and additional ECM pods carried under rule J11.111 may not exceed '6' ECM points(see also rule J4.9 Fighter Electronic Warfare).

Bombers using ECM/WBM may also use C10.0 Erratic Maneuvering, thus creating upto 4 points of "natural source" ECM.

Note that use of D19.0 Passive Fire Control is not cumulative with C10.0, although a bomber could select D19.0 instead of C10.0 to avoid having to use 1 point of movement per turn and still gain 2 points of ECM.

The intent of this proposal is to improve the ECM capacity of a Bomber (or bombers) at the expense of part of the weapons load out. the idea is to allow the bomber to close with an adversary to the point where it could use its Photons effectively. Also note that the 6 type 1 drones and the 2 VI drones on hardpoints are still available for use.

Rule J14.231 mandates a 1 point speed reduction of the bomber when 1 or 2 pods are carried, and a 2 point speed reduction if 3 or 4 pods are carried.

Rule J14.232 notes that all heavy bombers have 2 built in EW pods.

Thus, ECM/WBM equipped Bombers could have:

Built in ECM: 6 points
"Lent" ECM : 6 points
NaturalECM: 4 points.

total ECM=16 points.

It should also be noted that it is possible that the PDU or bomber base could lend ECM points to the squadron, but given the slow speed of the bombers, any enemy close enough to the base to be attacked by the bombers may already have the base and PDU under fire (or indeed) may have already destroyed the PDU or the base.

The ECM/WBM is intended to let the Bombers close to the target where the Photons and Type 1 drones become more effective.

The YIS for the ECM/WBM is year 168.

the ECM/WBM does not have any of the abilities or functions of MRS, SWACS or special Sensors beyond its ability to generate 6 points of ECM.

ECM/WBM are designed for B52 bombers will not fit anything else- they were configured to the Weapons Bay of a B52 which is different from Weapons Bays of B-1 and B-2 bombers.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Yikes!! is all I can say. A garunteed +3 shift to any standard warship. Garunteed +2 shift no matter what.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile;

The B-52 weapons bay may be different from the B-1/B-2 bays, but what would stop the Federation from simply designing modified versions for those bays when the bombers become available? The ECM/WBM designed for each bomber might be incompatible with other bomber types. But their doesn't seem to be any reason why all three types wouldn't have these.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Uh, Jeff, have you considered this,

B-52, Spd 6, 6xType-1, 2xType-3, ADD-6 (well good for that to shoot down Type-6s). It looses it's bonus of having a 4-space weapons bay (ie Photons).

It doesn't change the fact that with EM on it's speed 5, and B-52s are still going speed 6 with the EM off.

Just consider a comparision: 6xB-52 vs F5V+E4E group

6xB-52E(?)=180

F5V=70
8 Z-2=48?
E4E=53
Total==171

The B-52's loose their 12 Photons to scare off the ships, with only 36 drones, the Klingons will make mincemeat of them (well the specialized E4E will admitidly, but 16 drones from the fighters will contribute heavily)

So in essence your changing the B-52 into a super-sized scatterpack only servicable from a planet.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Jeff. Interesting way to get by the loop hole in (J4.92) "..and points received by lending from other units." [emphasis mine]

Still, I'd prefer an approach that wasn't Fed specific - the last thing the Feds need is more capable Bombers.

By Robert Snook (Verdick) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Yeah, the last thing the Feds need is another special item.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 03:04 pm: Edit

I tend to agree. They already have the only SWAC shuttles in the game; no need to give them what amounts to being a SWAC bomber. I can see where the inspiration would come from, what with the bays and all, but from a purely play balance viewpoint, I'd have to say no.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Scott Tenhoff, Sorry, I guess I have misread the rule R2.F15. (module J2 copy right 2002 page 25.)

my copy reads as"...B52 early bomber: One of the first, (and for a decade the only) Heavy Bomber shuttles in the Alpha Sector, the B52 mounted two photons and an array of drones. even better, it could carry and lay mines out of its bay, something few shuttles could do. each Photon has one charge:..."

the absence of the photon torpedos in the Weapons Bay list of options led me to the conclusion that the Photons were mounted on the B52 air frame outside of the bay. (perhaps like the A20 and the A10 Photon mounts).

Please note that the B-1 and the B-2 Weapons Bays list "* Up to two photon Torpedos can be carried, each taking one bay space and having a FA firing arc..."

The B52 list is different than what is printed for the B-1 and B-2 entries.

Was there erata issued that I missed?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 06:55 pm: Edit

(no rules infront of me)

My impression that they were in the bay, like all the other bomber types.

My memory, doesn't remember the listing in back of J2 having "2 FA Photons, 1 charge" under their description.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor, I guess the only answer I can give you is the point that Scott Tenhoff addressed. I was under (the mistaken) impression that the Photons on the B52 were separate from the weapons bay.

The thing that makes B52 dangerouse under this proposal is the premise that it keeps its photons...something that is not true of the B-1 and B2 models.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Ok.

Having reviewed the rules again in light of Scotts posts, it would appear that I "read more" into the wording than I should have...

Shucks and similar comments.

I will ask about it in the 'Questions on Ships' thread...but If I had to put my bet on the table now, I would expect that Scotts interpretation is correct.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Huh...

I always thought the B-52's photons were outside the weapons bay, and that the weapons bay could NOT carry any in additon to those two on the B-52. Note that on the SSDs the B-52 SSD (page 16 of the SSD book) shows photons for the B-52 but not the B-1 (same page) or the B-2 (page 4). Since the B-52 SSD depicts its photons like the A-20 does, and the B-1 and B-2 SSDs don't, this suggests to me that they are external to the bay. Note also that Annex #4 (page 63 of the rulebook) does list 2xPhot explicitly for the B-52 but not for the B-1 or B-2.

Jeff;

If your original assumption was correct, as I believe it was, that would still only mean that the B-1 could carry photons or the ECM/WBM but not both. And the B-2 could carry both because photons take up one space each and the B-2 has a 6-space bay rather than a 4-space bay.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Alan;

if you are correct, then on technical grounds the proposal may still be viable.

Mike Raper;

not sure I can agree with you assessment(grin) if the B52 had dash pods and could zip around at 11 hexes per turn instead of the 5 /turn limit pointed out by Scott Tenhoff it might be a bit more dangerous...but limited to speed 5 and having little choice but to stay inside the orbit of the Def Sats and the covering fire of the PDU's your are unlikely to see just a bomber vs bomber duel or even a bomber vs FFV carrier group as suggested earlier.

what you would see is a fleet engagement against a minor worlds defenses...and the ECM/WBM would make the bombers more survivable against the 750+BPV enemy fleet.

The issue isnt really just the bombers by them selves...its the synergy between the PDU/Fighters/Bombers and Def Sats and

Although I have not stated a cost for the ECM/WBM yet, if it materially inproves the combat BPV of the B-52's it might be worth it.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:53 pm: Edit

Andy Palmer,

I suppose the ECM/WBM would be useable by any races bombers that had a 4 space(or larger) weapons bay...

I just sited the Federation since they just happen to operate bombers that meet that description. (grin)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:06 pm: Edit

So do the Gorns, using Fed bombers converted to plasma torpedo tech (G-52, G-1, G-2). But since the Feds never exported SWAC technology to the Gorns it's not at all clear they would export this technology either.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 11:03 pm: Edit

The Fed bombers at least have drones; the Hydran bombers have only DF weapons.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 11:23 pm: Edit

J2 errata corrected the following; "(J14.23) The text in this rule stating that bombers cannot use mega-fighter systems is in error, and rules (J16.21) and (J16.249) are correct." It appears bombers can use mega packs. A B-52s speed would be doubled to 12. It appears under J8.51 an MRS could be assigned to a base. Under J8.4 it does not appear to preclude an MRS from providing EW support to a bomber squadron. an A-MRS has a speed of 10. A B-52 can carry two additional EW pods. Jeff would this arrangement provide a similar capability to your proposal?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 09:02 am: Edit

JRC,

Yes, it would provide a similar benefit...although the MRS would still be a priority target.

I was considering the ECM/WBM as a "final option" for planetary assaults where the invader closed on the planet within transporter range, or had started deploying troops...the +3 ecm shift Cfant referred to would allow the B52 force a greater chance of surviving long enough to hit with its photons and type 1 drones.

In such a circumstance, the chances that a MRS would survive may not be very good (grin).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 09:21 am: Edit

Scott Tenhoff,

Lets go back to your point about the Klingon F5V group (and fighters)...

There are now a couple people pointing out that the B52 SSD shows the Photon tubes while the B1 and B2 have photons in the weapons bay...(gee, I wish I had consulted the SSD first rather than rely on my reading of R2.F15!)

If the B52 squadron keeps its 12 photons and its 36 drones (and since there are fighters involved, we should also reflect on the 12 type VI drones) tha match up would be closer than first appearances might suggest.

Still, given your point about how slow the B52's carrying the ECM/WBM are (speed 5 without pods) they are not going to get far from the planet/PDU so the F5V group would also have to contend with the PDU fire power...

bottom line, a PDU + bombers equipped with ECM/WBM is going to be a tough "nut to crack" for a fair to large size fleet...which pretty much rules out pirate raids or small squadron activities by a hostile race(by this I mean F5V or frigate squadrons) and to a certain extent, cruiser squadrons will need some reinforcement.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:41 am: Edit

Jeff,

First thing, I remembered wrong about the Photons so I appologize for that.

But, after reading J4.91 (basic set) says that a fighter can't have more than 6 ECM/ECCM from any source (including be lent by the carrier). So I don't know how this is supposed to interact with that limitation. I see that you mention J4.9 in your proposal, so is supposed to be an explicit exception to that limitation?

Lets be real about this, if a bomber could self-generate 12ECM, EM, and get the hvy fighter target modifier, it'll be nigh impossible to hit at range, but it still has the problem that it's speed 6 (or 5 with EM) and can't HET (bombers can't) stuck with FA photons.

With regards to a planet with these, if a B52 is using all of it's EW Pods power on ECM, that's great for the attacker, since it Photons suck in an EW environment, especially at range 8 (because the attacker will choose the engagement range with a speed 6 bomber)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Scott, "Don't sweat the small stuff" (grin)...its just that I treat your comments with respect. That we are human and make mistakes happens to everyone from time to time, and I appreciate your integrity in how you handled this. enough said.

With regard to rule J4.91, see andy Palmers post on 6/17 @ 1:49PM. Actually, you may be correct. If we were talking about a single space fighter I have no doubt about it, however we are discussing bombers...and bombers depart from fighters in a number of different ways...just suggesting that this might be another case where fighters and bombers are different, just like bombers may not be operated from ships (ever) but fighters can be. and where dash pod(warp packs) work differently on bombers as they do on PF's and fighters.

Next, as long as "we're being 'real' about this..." I still stand by the idea that B52's would not be operating independently from the planet...as you have pointed out they are far too slow and with the limits on the warp pods (after 180 year) limiting strategic movement there just isnt any advantage to be gained by independent strikes by B52's.

That said, there are certain advantages to be gained by staying wthin 5 SFB hexes of the planet plus the fire support available from the PDU ground based Phasers (and drones or photons if present in the PDU) not to mention the regular fighter group and the Def Sats.

I would also like to note that this is not a case of "attacker see bomber...dead bomber" the ideal is Bomber shoots attacker survives to reload and # number of impulses/turns later the reloaded bomber dumps yet another salvo of Photons and drones into the (it is to be hoped) saturated attacker's defenses. Every additional turn the bombers and def sats can prevent the attacker from closely approaching the planer (within 5 tactical hexes) is another turn that the dreaded phaser 4's can deal out some serious damage.

The ECM/WBM could allow the B52's to survive longer than is normally the case.

Infact, your comments are not entirely out of context against "stock" B52's without the ECM/WBM...with the J4.9 limits fighters and bombers are not as good as regular starships in electronic warfare as "normal" B52's have to balance ECM/ECCM factors already.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

No unit can get both the small target modifier and EM. Unless there is something explicit in the bomber rules (I don't remember anything, but don't have them with me to double check), bombers are classfied as fighters and under the maximum generated/lent EW of 6 ECM and 6 ECCM. I know heavy fighters are under these limits (thus it is rare to see a heavy EWF).

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Would adding two additional EWF pods as part of the bomber megapack instead of the two additional damage points accomplish what you are after?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Joseph R Carlson,

Honestly, I thought Bombers couldn't use mega packs when I made the porposal.

Actually, two additional EWF pods are superior to the ECM/WBM in versatility (in that they can generate both ECM and ECCM) where the ECM/WBM would only "Boost" the ECM factors generated.

the disadvantage of additional EWF pods would be the additional loss of speed that they would require (already noted in this thread).

also, note the J4.91 limits that both Andy Palmer and Scott Tenhoff have referred to. the additional EWF could generate up to the maximum ECM and ECCM limits. the ECM/WBM would allow a greater TOTAL ECM than previously allowed to fighter shuttles.

the germ of this proposal is the Weapons Bay Module 4 space capacity being used to allow greater capacity than B52 Bombers could acheive without the use of ECM/WBM's.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Jeff,

If the two EWF pods are carried as additional pods you only reduces speed by one to 11. My suggestion was to make the additional pods part of the mega-pack. No reduction in speed and you do not fill up the bay. The cost of the megapack would be increased by the value of EWF pods and you do not gain the two additional damage points.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 09:50 am: Edit

Joseph,

the issue is, without the ECM/WBM the rules limit the amount of ECM/ECM points the bomber could generate to 6.

the use of the ECM/WBM increases the total ECM generated by 6 additional EW points that are "usable".

I am not questioning your point about additional EW pods...just that rule J4.91 and J11.111 already define how the EW pods function.

IIRC the most ECM/ECCM points usable by fighters are 6 ECM and 6 ECCM. your suggestion to increase the number of EW pods would allow more than 6 EW points to be generated...but it is still limited to no more than 6 ECM and 6 ECCM points.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Sorry I have been dense on this and also did not state what I was thinking in my last post. What I was thinking but did not write is make your ECM/WBM as a new type of megapack for heavy bombers only which excludes medium bombers like the FB-111. You have stated ECM/WBM uses four spaces. If you like the idea of making this into a mega-ECM/WBM-pack what are your thoughts on cost and how the four spaces would dealt with. I do like the idea you have proposed. Thanks for being patient with me and responding.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:16 am: Edit

Sorry for not responding to this earlier...Don't quite know how I missed it...(scratches head)

Well, first Joseph, the ECM/WBM is expressly not a mega pack.

Mega packs are covered by another rule and (IMO) are not directly affected by the presence (or absence) of a ECM/WBM.

As far as how the ECM/WBM would be handled, I suggest that it be like any other option in the Bomb Bay... either paid for in advance with the rest of the force in terms of BPV's or as commanders options points just as if one were paying for drone speed upgrades, special drones, mines or any other type of munition or equipment.

As far as cost is concerned, playtesting will establish the cost, but to start I would initially guess each ECM/WBM would be worth atleast 6 PBV's...36 points for a squadron of 6.

almost enough for a small starship or several additional defense fighters. The ability to have a +2 (or a +3) shift is worth alot.