The small Romulan/Tholian war of Y89 was mentioned to me as a good idea for a scenario. This scenario should be pretty self-balancing, but I don't know if I gave the Romulans too good of a starting position.

Also, since the scenario is bid-based and pretty much dependent on the two races involved, I can't think of any variations or balancing options.

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(SP__.0) TECHNOLOGY GAP
(Y89) by Mike West, Texas
When the Masking device and seeking plasma were developed the Romulans attacked the Tholians to test the new systems in battle.
(SP__.1) NUMBER OF PLAYERS: 2; the Romulan player and the Tholian player.
(SP__.2) INITIAL SET-UP:
Romulan: See (SP__.45) for force selection and (SP__.46) for starting positions.
All forces speed max, WS-III.
Tholian: Ship A in 2214, heading C.
Ship B in 2216, heading C.
All forces speed 4, WS-I.
(SP__.3) LENGTH OF SCENARIO: The scenario continues until all forces of one side have been destroyed, captured, or have disengaged.
(SP__.4) SPECIAL RULES
(SP__.41) MAP: The map is fixed; it does not float. Any unit leaving the map has disengaged and cannot return.
(SP__.42) SHUTTLES AND PFs: No shuttles or PFs have warp booster packs. Note that this is an Early Years scenario and that the administrative shuttles have no phasers.
(SP__.421) MRS shuttles were not available at the time of this scenario and may not be purchased under (SP__.431).
(SP__.422) There are no fighters in this scenario.
(SP__.423) There are no PFs in the Early Years.
(SP__.43) COMMANDER’S OPTION ITEMS
(SP__.431) Each ship can purchase additional or special equipment as Commander's Option Items (e.g., T-bombs, extra marines, etc.) up to 20% of its Combat BPV. See (S3.2) for details and exceptions. Note that whatever is spent here counts in the Modified Victory Conditions (S2.2) as victory points for the enemy.
(SP__.432) No ship in this scenario uses drones.
(SP__.433) No ship in this scenario normally carries a Prime Team (G32.0), but such Teams are sometimes assigned to various ships. Players may experiment with Prime Teams, perhaps as a balance
factor.
(SP__.44) REFITS: There are no refits to any ships in this scenario.
(SP__.45) ROMULAN BIDDING: The Romulan force is selected by bidding. The two players bid on the number and selection of Romulan ships it will take to kill the Tholians. The player with the weakest force selection plays the Romulans.
(SP__.46) ROMULAN DEPLOYMENT: The Romulan player may place his forces anywhere on the map, with any facing, at any speed, as long as they are at least 10 hexes from both Tholian ships. At least
one Romulan ship must be fading out of Mask starting on Impulse 1 of Turn 1. (This is not hidden deployment. The Tholians will detect, under normal Mask rules, all Romulan ships at the start of the scenario.)
(SP__.47) SUBLIGHT DISENGAGEMENT: Any Romulan ship that disengages by sublight evasion is counted as destroyed for victory purposes.
(SP__.5) VICTORY CONDITIONS: The Romulan wins if he scores internals on a Tholian ship, and at least half of his ships successfully leave the map. The Tholian player wins if every Romulan ship is destroyed. Any other result is a draw.
(SP__.6) VARIATIONS: The scenario can be played again under different conditions by making one or more of the following changes:
(SP__.61) Variation 1
(SP__.62) Variation 2
(SP__.7) BALANCE: The scenario is by its very nature balancing.
(SP__.8) TACTICS:
(SP__.9) PLAYTESTER COMMENTS:
(SP__.X) DESIGNER’S NOTES:
HISTORICAL OUTCOME:

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Note you need to list the Tholian Ships so the bidders have something to target their bids at...may I commend 3 Tholian PCs.

Clasic Varriations for Tholians.

1) Map is an Asteroid Feild. 9 You might be able to trade say an Orion Mercinary YCA for the feild int eh bidding process or the like.

2) Tholains start already in a PINWHEEL behind a layer of Web of two.

3) Tholains are replaced by Gorn with raiding force being the testbed (there's bound to be atleast one Romo-Gorn disputed planet the Romulans can insist must be taken back by force and then relent for war reparations if they kick off something they can't handle.

4) 3 But with the Federation.

5) The Battle could be fought in a Radiation Zone.

6) The battle could be fought in the presense of a Monster.

Balancing Factors
1) One of the Tholain ships might have an outstanding crew.
2) One of the Tholian ships might have a Legendary Weapons Officer.
3) One of the Tholain ships might have 1 and another ship 2.
4) One of the Tholian ships might have both 1 and 2.
5) One, two or Even three of the Tholains could be Disruptor Armed PCs.
6) The Tholians might have a Command Cruiser ( or even a DN thanks to the three PCs), thrown in to the group to generate balance although even a destroyer of some kind will do.
7) The Tholains could get an Asteroid Feild to generate Balance.
8) The Tholains Could have a Poor crew for balance.
9) The WS of the tholains could be toggled.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Sorry, forgot to note that right.

The Tholian force consists of two PCs. I chose two, so that web has a chance to be used. I did not chose three, so that no pinwheel could be used, and so the Romulan force could be more managable.

Only the Romulan force is part of the bid. The Tholian force is fixed. (There is no point to bidding for the Romulan force if the Tholian force is not known and fixed.)

There are no disruptor ships, cruisers, or dreadnoughts as this is an EY scenario set in Y89.

Replacing either race in the scenario doesn't work, as the whole point of the scenario is the extreme differentiation of the Tholians advanced and alien technology against the Romulans unique combination of advanced and backwards technology.

I do not want an asteroid field; I want it clear to keep the maneuvering open. I suppose that can be one of the variations, though.

Modifying the Tholian WS is a good balance rule, though.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 01:21 am: Edit

With the scenario format, the Romulans are all but certain of crippling one PC. If the attack force is a roughly BPV equivalent 4 WWB and the WWBs are spread around the PCs position, the Romulans should get at least 2 R-torps of 35 points of damage to hit one PC. The second PC will have no chance to energize web and play clever web tricks. Seems unlikely that the Romulans would be able to surround a target with the many turns required to do that.

The other problem with the scenario is the quick set of tactics I would try for both sides are unrealistic relative to the time frame of the scenario. The Tholians would not create a center web ring to run out plasma nor power WWs prior to the first encounter with fast seeking weapons. Romulan tactics are equally adjusted by player knowledge of web strength and effects on plasma. Not sure, but I think including a traditional small base as target would force both sides to work out more reasonable tactics.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 01:27 am: Edit

Also, the Rom Shuttles are sublight only.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 08:28 pm: Edit

I would like to say that the PINWHEEL comment I made was wholly and solly for varriation and not ment to be the starting point.

Actually it might be best to put the Tholians in a single hex, say 0404 and then allow the Roms to set up in sections B, C, D, E & F of the map as they feel free; to stop the Romulans having a YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY PLASMA:- SET-UP especially if you throw in a planet ( maybe a gas giant for a change ) and then have a semi-floating map such that the planet always stays on the map ( Giving the tholians somewhere to run if they want to pull back from the plasma).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 05:10 am: Edit

A one-shot scenario. Tholians are surrounded by plasma, so one ship will probably get badly damaged, even if the tholians use WWs. After that, the Roms will need a miracle to get another hit - even if the damaged PC is reduced to a single Xdam box, it can be towed out of R-torp range (given that the Rom ships can only move 1 hex per turn) by the other PC before the torps cycle. Note however that such towing will immediatly give the Roms victory as it is very likely that it will involve both tholian ships being more than 35 hexes away from at least 1 Rom ship, allowing disengagemnet by separation.

After the one shot, the scenario will get quite tedious, but will turn into a Rom victory anyway. A good tholian should be able to keep his undamaged ship out of trouble with little difficulty, but will only have 1 or 2 turns to damage the (masked) Roms before the torps come back online - probably not long enough to cripple any of them. After that, the Tholians will find it hard to approach any Rom ship for a good shot without getting R-type problems. Even moving at 1 hex per turn, the Roms should be able to engineer a disengagement by separation for at least 1 ship simply by moving their ships away from each other. I'm not sure about the rulings for disengagement by sub-light evasion, but imagine that would be still easier, possibly allowing all the Rom ships to disengage.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 07:46 am: Edit

David. With WS-I, the PCs won't have WWs ready. Given the starting positions and statuses, and given 4 WWBs, I can't imagine the Romulans NOT killing both PCs on T1 (70 damage WILL kill a PC).

For a game with more balance and purpose, put a Tholian fixed base of some type (even if just a GSA on an asteroid) on the map. The Romulan goal is to capure it (shuttles or even landing, as they lack transporters) while the Tholians must defend it. Put the Roms ~10 hexes from the planet and the Tholians ~15 hexes the other direction.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 08:48 am: Edit

I guess then the Roms would then typically be bidding about 2 WWBs. They will get their internals, its just a question of whether they get away.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 10:45 am: Edit

Actually, a 35 point hit on a PC will cripple it (might have a single Ph-1 left, down 4+ power). Even assuming they have 3 Ph-1s left between them, that's not enough to do internals on a WWB.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Sure, but the PC will no doubt use it's turn 1 phasers to reduce the warhead by approx 10 pts, use a btty to absorb a pt, and perhaps have a point or two or reinforcement for a ~23 pt hit. After shields, that shouldn't be too bad.

Do WWB's have pseudo-Rs? I assume not...

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 12:16 pm: Edit

WWB have the standard PPT to go with their standard seeking plasma.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

..with no reason NOT to use them on T1.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 08:00 pm: Edit

(SP__.45) needs a definition of how the bids are evaluated if involving different ship classes (eg is 1 WB better than 12 SN?). What happens if both players have the same bid? (Given the limited bid choices, this may occur regularly).

You guys did realize the map is fixed? Getting off the map could get interesting if the Roms have used their pseudos (the PC charges in waits for the torp, fires phasers? ED and pops a WW and then finishes closing after the ED period--the Rom isn't going anywhere; remember the PC is nimble and can get to speed 30 in 34 impulses from a dead stop). Note that the loss of a crippled PC doesn't matter, so why tow it away? Let it use what it has and absorb fire.

I'm guessing that "winning bids" will be less than 2 WB (I'm not sure why anyone thought about starting with a bid of 4 WB and discussing tactics based on that). I think and it seems others do as well based on the discussion above, that 2 WB is an almost guaranteed Rom victory. I'm not sure how much less before it becomes a guaranteed Tholian victory. I think WB + Hawk is on the high side, but closer. WB + SN might be interesting, but starts to feel weak. I'm wondering if 2 Hawks is the winning bid? This will partly depend on the definiting of bid win (I'm assuming BPV).

A note on bidding levels should be put in the tactical discussion. This is the type of scenario that can be ruined by not realizing what reasonable bids are (see the 4 WB example).

Mike, I think you misunderstood the use for (SP___.7). It is for when both players know that one is better than the other. Thus it should have entries like giving the weaker player a bid advantage. Or giving the PC a starting advantage (WS is a big one, as is starting speed, both are probably almost as large as a third PC).

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 09:15 pm: Edit

The PCs should be able to take the torps in the 16-18 bracket (10 hexes range + movement at spd 13/14)

I can win this battle with 52 BPV - 1 WVL

2 WHKs can't do it - the G-torps lose strength too fast. 40 points of torp, minus 8 ph-1s, minus 5 reinforcement = 1 down shield and no internals. (PPT use would make this 8 internals)

You need at least 5 G-torps or an R and 2 G-torps. The Roms need to do their damage on the first turn.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 09:48 pm: Edit

Andy, I need to look at a map again, but I thought I had a way where the target either took both sets at 30 each or one set at 20 and one set at 40. This may have allowed the target to select 2 shields, so that may have been a problem (it was a plasma sandwich where the PC had to HET--yes its cheap for them but it is one less reinforcement--and the let the plasmas cut the corner).

Note that given the VC, the use of the PPT to get those few internals is critical (then it just becomes live and escape time for the WHK).

On the other hand, I'm worried that this discussion is pointing out a major flaw in the scenario. It is more of a tactical exercise than a scenario: Once the Rom has his ships, he sets up the turn 1 shot and it comes down to whether he bid too low or misses something in the planning. After that it is a long game as the Roms withdraw to the map edge covering each other with plasma as the PCs try to sand the ships away with medium range phasers (I don't see too many shots at range 5 or closer--too much chance for the Roms to get in the killer shot). This would seem to come down whether or not the Tholians get extremely lucky with their phasers (and thus they're very unlikely to win). Or perhaps another way to put it is that once the bidding is done the winnner can, barring a mistake, be called (75% of the time) witout bothering to set up a map (and probably goes above 90% after the end of turn 1).

The withdrawl phase is where the 4 G torps might be better than the 2 R torps (can spit out one torp/turn and still have a reserve torp for any attempt to run through a torp).

Two rules I need to check--I think EPT are not yet available. Does being nimble let the PCs get away faster on turn 1?

The WVL does look like the winner if BPV is the bidding criteria (my first thought was plasma launch as the criteria so that the WVL was the same as a 5 SN or 2 WB bid).

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 10:07 pm: Edit

David.

1. PPTs are available in EY. They are both on the SSDs and there is no rule in Y1 removing them.

2. They can speed change on impulses 4 and 10, but are still under the +10 limit.

For positioning, I'm assuming all Roms as close to each other as possible - the Roms can't afford to lose damage to multiple shields being hit.

[EDIT] I agree that the scenario is more of a technical excersise at this point; that's why I suggested the changes I did which give the Romulans a viable target and the Tholians a time limit.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Andy, I know PPT are available, I was wondering about enveloppers--EPT--(I don't think there available, but need to check).

Remember that all the Roms need to do is score 1 internal to win. Doing an extra 50% in damage, but spread across 2 shields may be better for them (the extra shield is only 18 boxes, the 50% increase is 20 points of damage...).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 10:15 pm: Edit

David: The 4 WWB idea was mine. If the intent of the scenario is to showcase Tholian technological superiority, having the Romulan force half the BPV of the Tholian force subverts the concept.

To match the scenario description, the Romulans should have 2 or 3 times the BPV of the Tholians. That means the Romulans should have something along the lines of 2 WVL and 6 WWB. The Tholians should have a trick that needs to be discovered that permits the Tholians to easily destroy even a vastly more powerful Romulan force.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

David. EPTs are not available until Y162.

RWW. Let the Tholians start WSIII, speed 15 and you have a fight on your hands. Give the Tholians a YBS, and you can have your double BPV

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 09:30 am: Edit

Quite frankly, just about any scenario with sublight Romulans is a "tactical exercise". The reason is because their speed one movement removes the vast majority of their options. It is a limitation of the ship selection.

I don't want a base. I want the Tholians able to move freely.

For starting condition, how about I let the Tholians be WS-III, the Romulan force enters from a single point, the map floats, but now the Tholians have to gain a certain amount of information (what with the new weapons and all). Would that make it work better?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 09:39 am: Edit

Mike. The info might work.

1. The Roms need a victory condition not dependent upon causing damage.
2. The Tholians need a clock on the scenario - time in on THEIR side.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 11:48 pm: Edit

For bidding, I suggest this:

All bidding is done in 'Warbirds'.

'Warbirds' can be cashed in at the follwing exchange rates-

1 Vulture = 3 Warbirds.
1 Warbird = 1 Warbird.
1 Hawk = 1/2 Warbird.
1 Snipe = 1/4 Warbird.

The Romulans still have to abide by CR. Other than that, any combination is allowed.

Also, another suggestion:

To reflect the Tholian curiousity about the 'new' Romulan tech, before the PC's can disengage they MUST collect X points of info on the Romulan ships. X would equal 50 points per Romulan ship, so if a Romulan fleet of 5 Snipes was out there, the Tholians need 250 points, while if it's a lone Vulture, they need a measly 50 points (and good luck, buddy).