Ok...I don't think that Photon Torpedos need to be fixed at all but how about increasing their options. Perhaps a underloading of torpedos. Dialing the torpedo damage completely. Still two turn arming but you may arm it with whatever amount of warp power you wish. Each 1/2 point of power divided over 2 turns yields 1 point of damage (1 point over 2 tuns gives 1 damage for proxes). This enables a smaller unit to do some damage as well as increase tactical options to larger ones.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Underloaded weapons are on the Auto Reject List.

By William Curtis Soder (Ghyuka) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 07:45 pm: Edit

As are many other of the topics on here. The only reason why I mention it is that other than the PPD, the photon torpedo is the only weapon to be able to accomplish this task without a heck of a lot of changes (SSDs, rules, etc).

By Alexander Pitman (Dassadec) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:18 am: Edit

I could only see this as an option for the FRA in the Omega Sector.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:50 am: Edit

The simplest version is to allow the "light" loading, that is 4pt standards. No overloading allowed for underloads. Just a low-power standard option.

The problem is, given all the established "history" of SFB, where would you introduce a dial-a-photon other than X2? And that thread's been through countless iterations of the fix-the-photon battle.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 01:06 am: Edit

Actually they wouldn't want an X2 4 or 6 point Photon because X2 Photons will probably have either a 12 point or 10 point standard making the 8 point photon the LIGHT MODE. Even n an XFF the ability to launch something less than 8 points isn't warrented as the XFF will probably only have 2 tubes but have 2 AWR and 20 Warp Engine Boxes, making 4 points per turn fairly easy to find anyway, it's not like an FF or DD.

I could see an MY/GW period 6 point Photons but it'ld definately be a stellar shadows thing.


For the most part the Fed DD captains have the right idea, if you're fighting against a Klingon F5 ( which is quite a bit weaker than you anyway ) anything beyond 2 standards puts you ahead of two overloaded Disruptors so three standards or a pair of 10 pointers will do just fine.

A Fed FF might have trouble fighting an E4 if it (the E4) does the sabre dance but by dialing the attack pattern out to three turns; the holding energy effectively gives you a half price standard photon ( if you're counting half price purely on the turn of attack ).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 01:17 am: Edit

Indeed the held standard is a lot like a light Photon mode.

Firing two thirds as often is like having a warhead of 5.33 for half the power ( if measuring half the power as being solly on the turn of attack ).

On a Fed FF the 2 points of power you'll save could be the difference between an R14 shot and an R8 shot so; so long as you're not trying to keep up with the performance of a fleet the FF should look at the held standards as its light Photon option.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 01:45 am: Edit

MJC, don't start the big photon argument here. I was just trying to make a point that any "other" photon wouldn't really fit in the pre-X2 period. Also you have no more authority in X2 than I do, which is none. And keep the X2 discussions in that thread.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 02:42 am: Edit

Strange...I thought I said "probably" enough times to make it look like I wasn't making any statment of authorised knowledge.

I can see it as a Stellar Shadows thing but I don't really see it as being needed because you effectively create a Photon with a 5.33 warhead and a 1 point cost by using a three turn arming cycle and attacking with held photons.
Sure the numbers are a bit of a fudge, it's 2+2+1 & 2+2+1 instead of 2+2 & 2+2 & 2+2 which is on average of 1.66 into each tube and the 5.33 is really 8 on a cycle 1.5 times longer, but you get the drift.
If the extra six hexes of movement a Fed FF gets allows an R14 shot to become R8 or an R9 shot to become R4 then it's well worth skipping the third shot every six turns to get those massively increased to hit chances.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Now that I agree with. It would be fun to play with in SSJ.

For the record: you said "probably" once for the photon and once for the XFF. At least you didn't write a novel.

Anyway, I agree the FF should be a phaser/drone dancer that closes in for the kill only when it's prey is crippled.

Which has nothing to do with this thread so I shouldn't have even posted it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 11:49 am: Edit

"You must be at least 8 points of damage to ride this photon launcher."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Good one!

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 05:56 am: Edit

I really cannot see the need for underloaded photons. Any ship that is in such dire straits such that it cannot muster 2 points of warp power to load a standard photon really should be using what little warp it has for something else (e.g. energy efficient phasers?). And the difference between 4 or 8 points of damage is neither here nor there in most cases anyway.
Indeed, the only use I can think for this is batting down drones or finishing off shuttles without overkill.

The only argument for light photons that would make them a worthwhile weapon rather tahn just "chrome" is if they became more accurate. And that simply is not going to happen.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 10:01 am: Edit

Actually, no.


Look at what the Fed FF has.
12 points of warp and 3 impulse and two BTTY.

If I pay house keeping and arm two standard Photons and generate four points of ECCM to ganrrettee that once I add the BTTYs I can shoot without a shift then I have a top battle speed of ( 15 -2.5 -4 -2x2 = 4.5 ) 13 which isn't so chrash hot if I want to keep up a battle speed with the CAs in my fleet or even duel against an E4. I go even 6 hexes per turn slower if I want to do EM and 9 hexes faster if I restrict myself such that worst case scenario with BTTY I shoot through a +1 shift.

Now lets say I can load one or both of the tubes with a half value Photon and both are proximity fuse set. If by chance I am at range 11 with one half load Photon and one full proxy and I choose what I beleive to be an SP as my target, I can narrow volley the Photons together and inflict 6 points of damage; destroying the SP.
Now if by chance I miss, I will still be going at speed 16 which puts me in a much better position defensively against speed 20 drones than if I were going at speed 13.


Basicially by trading Photon damage down to Disruptor damage ( on a two turn weapon ) the Photon will get a fairly massive advantage over Disruptors and is in fact not little more than toying around with the detail.
Consider if you could fire two standard disruptors from an E4 for the price of one...Would you do it!?!...would you care!?!
The saved power would either go into EW to make sure you hit or movement to make sure you could take advantage of the siutation.
Building half price Photons for half the performance is just like firing two disruptors for the price of one (at the primary fire point).
FF R8 light Photon, 1-3 x 4 x 2 => 4 average damage
E4 R8 Disruptors, 1-4 x 3 x 2 => 4 average damage
I just hope the light Photon can't be front loaded by starting the arming as standard but finishing as a light photon and yeilding a 6 point warhead (3 point proxy).


The differnce between scoring 4 and 8 points of damage is huge on little ships like the FF and E4.
Consider if you inflict 10 or 14 points of damage.
The chance of scoring a Torp is ( 1 -(17¹⁰ / 18¹⁰) ) 43.53% and ( 1 -(17¹⁴ / 18¹⁴ )) 55.08% which is a massive 26% improvement...the difference in the chance of scoring one of those all improtant A3 hits gets even greater the smaller the actual number of internal damage done.


FFs are in dire straights from the word go particularly if EW is in play so perhaps there is a need for light photons ( althought I think light photons already exist in the form of held standards).

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 10:14 am: Edit

P6 had the "mini" photon; half strength for half cost. Might make a nice option, particularly for smaller ships like the FF, POL, or DD. The big advantage comes in the tables; arming a four point photon as a six point overload gets you the overload auto-hit feature without spending the power a standard one needs. In fact, you can overload a mini photon for less than the cost of loading a "normal" standard (three points instead of four). Don't think it'll ever fly, though, not because it wouldn't work but because of the can of worms it would open for the other DF races.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

Yeah can of worms...Whats the feedback damage against the 6 point Overload!?!...nothing???


Did the Mega Photons in that publication work?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 11:14 am: Edit

More or less. The idea, though, was that a DN would get four of those instead of six "normal" ones, so you really didn't gain anything other than more damage per individual hit; your overall damage potential was the same. So, a DNH with four mega photons wasn't that much better off than a normal DNH; in fact, it kind of sucked because it made it easier to loose your weapons once you started taking internals. We tried plaing by keeping the number of tubes at six AND using the mega photons, and it just made the Fed ships king of the hill. Get close and kill any ship you please with 144 points of photon damage. Poof!

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 03:31 am: Edit

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really should be using what little warp it has for something else (e.g. energy efficient phasers?).

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 03:57 am: Edit

Oops


such as Disruptors which for just two points of power will generate an average of 2 points of damage ( three points of damage 66.67% of the time ) all the way out to R15 which is better than plugging in those two points of power into Ph-2s and

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 06:18 am: Edit

MJC

You really misunderstand me. Let's take the fed FF you have given as your example.

If I am at long range, and intending to use proxies, speed is less critical. 13 is OK is using mid-turn speed changes. Besides, I think you can have minimal fire control for only 0.5 points if you only intend to fire 2 weapons, and that will speed the FF up to 15.

Now, If I load only one photon, my speed goes up six. If I have the option of loading 1.5 photons, as you say, it goes up three. Is the difference between speed 15 and 18 or speed 18 and 21 likely to be critical? At engagement ranges of 10+? Not very likely. In any case, if you are at long range, you could arrange to come in holding proxies for 1 energy each, which will up your speed by six anyway, and you can normally hide speed problems with mid-turn speed changes such that you go 24+ when you are at your preferred engagement range. Not to mention that if the enemy are putting up 6ECM and loading (standard)DSR, they arn't moving fast either (the F5 equivalent will be moving ca. 18 IIRC, E4s will be hopeless).

And I note you seemed to ignore my caveat - the main use for this is for swatting off small targets. I understand that narrow salvoing 1.5 proxies to kill of a scatterpack at R15 (or whatever) would be very useful, and the proposal removes the "granularity" problem of photons. However, that only works if you know you are going to use your proxies for that purpose - in nearly all cases it would be better to have 2 fully loaded proxies and move a little slower (3MP if loading them, only 1-2 if holding).

Now - at shorter range (8 or less)- the Klingons will want to avoid 8, or only hit 8 when they are going to shift you. So you will need speed to close. If you are not loading photons, and still see the 4ECCM as necessary, then you close at speed 25. Each 1/2 photon you are loading slows you down 3. 1 full photon is pretty much the same as 2 light-photons, so the equation comes down to whether you need to go any of 25,22,19,16 or 13 as opposed to only having 13, 19, or 25 as your options. Again, your tactics should not depend on such fine tuning of speeds.
Needless to say, if you are going to get within R8 going, say, speed 19, you would probably do better to jack the ECCM, go speed 28, and spend the other point of power on overloading a photon. That way, you will probably get to R4 or less. Whereupon the light photon is completely unecessary.

The notion that 1 light photon is better at the time of firing (because it uses less energy) than one DSR at R8 is of course correct. You entirely forget to mention that the photon takes 2 turns to load, and much of its utility is in its "crunch" power to go though a shield by having a stronger alpha strike. Light photons sacrifice that ability.

So, I correct myself. Unless this is an attempt to remove the granularity of photon damage (only really useful vs shuttles) or an attempt to allow the Feds to fine-tune thier speeds to an unecessary degree, it's just chrome.

I would maintian that granularity of photon damage is one of the central characteristics of the weapon.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 09:37 am: Edit

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I would maintian that granularity of photon damage is one of the central characteristics of the weapon.

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By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 10:26 am: Edit

What does "Poetry" have to do with the engineering of the Photon Torpedo?!?

We'll have to ask SVC but it could be that the Photon torpedos were designed to work in a certain way...and don't work at all outside of those constraints.

for an analogy, if one were to take a 457 magnum hand gun, and "underload" one round you get a bullet (assuming it works) being discharged from the weapon with a significantly lower velocity and reduced "hitting power"...the question is not that you could do it...its rather "why should you do it"?!? if you want to reduce your damage, use a phaser...most of the time, the need is to maximize damage potention, not minimize it.

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Underloading a Photon is an interesting idea IMO. It would make the underpowered ships like the DD and FF alittle more versitile. Even on larger vessels that take alot of damage in battle they could still arm something in their tubes, even if it isn't at full strength. Its something. Maybe a last act of the desperate to try and save your ship. It would be especially useful for seperated Saucer sections.

But as we all know damage is damage. No matter how little we do its still there.