Archive through July 21, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: First Generation X-ships: X1R The X-ship R Module: Archive through July 21, 2004
By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 11:11 am: Edit

While summarizing X1R I needed create a holistic vision. This vision was largely based on what I felt could be balanced and justified historically and influenced by our discussions. I made recommendations that not everyone will agree with, but I also made an active effort not to flavor the summary without expressing opposing viewpoints. In most cases this was represented by providing Pros and Cons. In cases like batteries where several choices existed I simply listed them all and suggested playtesting rather then picking the one I liked best. In the cases that were still up for debate I listed these as issues that still need to be resolved. You all provided feedback on earlier drafts and highlighted the areas where I editorialized too much. I incorporated your feedback into the SVC draft. Once he has had a few days to review it I suspect he won’t object to my posting it here with his comments.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Think CVSX with a dozen F-14 or F-15 and a pair of special sensors to find Andro bases. YIS Y196.

Plus the GVX 6xF-111 (or 6xA-20) which was published in CL26.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Sounds like you put a lot of work into it. Good job, and thanks!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Remember that (if this product is done) only Petrick and I will decide "what made the cut". Tos's job (and he seems to have done it well) is to establish if there is enough good stuff to bother doing it at all.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 07:00 pm: Edit

I was thinking.
A lot of people don't like the idea of a GSX for every race...but...what if some races got a GSX and others got a X heavy scout???

That would follow suit with the design philosphies of the different races.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 09:05 pm: Edit

SVC:

Is there any chance that during the X1R period ( late X1 period...although asince none were used in X1 it could be the entire X1 period ) the X1 E-rack was extended to match the G-rack extention and thus hold 12 type IX drones?


I think it would be hell on drones and see an emergance of the E-rack as the X1 anti-drone of its time like the E-rack had been back in the MY period.
Although if G-racks got the same dogfight drone chuck rate as E-racks it'ld be much of a muchness...unless the E-rack dropped down to a 6 impulse delay rather than 8.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 09:55 am: Edit

MJC: I suppose one might think there is a chance. I'm not focused on this product right now so I cannot give a definitive answer.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit

MJC:

Two insured drone kills is good (An e-rack launches two drones a round)

But an ADD-12 can be reasonably be assurred of being able to kill as many as 6-8 drones in one turn.

I don't see any kind of E-rack as superior to an ADD or G-rack. Nor is there any reasont to think it was ever THE anti-drone weapon of any era. Not General War or X1R.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 08:09 pm: Edit

SVC:

Thanks for the responce.


J.T.:

Well actually, FD3.5 says four times per turn...I think maybe you are thinking of E-racks.

It also depends on the drone...A type VIII Ph-1 swordfish drone won't get to R3 to be fired upon by that ADD-12.

Then there is the fact that the X1 vessels already have a pretty nifty point blank anti-drone system in the form of Rapid Pulsed Phasers.

Then there is the fact that their is no 12 hex limit for type IX drones.


For pure drone killing the 0-12 drones an ADD-12 might be better than the 4 drones of the E-rack but ( although at tripple the consupmtion rate ) but Fighters ( apparently all forms of Stingers are sheer hell at R8 ) and PFs get by relatively unscaved which won't happen witht he E-racks.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Then buy a handful of type-IX drones and stick them in the Gx-rack. Run into fighters or a goofy swordfish drone, launch type-IX. Run into drones, fire ADDs. Run into PFs or ships, launch type-VII or VIII. That's the nice thing about the Gx-rack: it gives you a ton of options, and given the variety of threats faced in the X-era, you would have to be nuts to take anything other than a Gx-rack (excepting, of course, the Kzintis, who live or die by the C-rack-generated drone wave).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:53 am: Edit

The GX rack would only launch a single dogfight drone, but a launch of 4 Type IX drones per turn (I was wrong) could be pretty vicious.

Especially IXs who have a full turn's range.

An ADD or GX rack is still better at the anti-drone task, but a EX rack would be nifty against attrition units.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 02:02 am: Edit

As if X-ships needed any help there.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Quote:

Run into drones, fire ADDs. Run into PFs or ships, launch type-VII or VIII.


Unfortunately you limit yourself to one type IX from a G-rack and can't fire ADDs from the G-rack that turn.
A Goofy type VIII-Ph-1 would probably be in a bunch of other drones and thus the G-rack will be held back to R3 and used as an ADD.

X1 E-racks have a different function than ADDs in this sence. As ADDs cause the drones to be bunched together, E-racks cause the ships to protect the drones by either keeping them inside the ship or inside phaser protection of the ship until as late as possible in the attack run. The the Fastloaded heavies of the other X ships in the fleet ( and probably the X-fighter's Ph-Gs )can really start to smash the drone chucking ship itself.


Quote:

Especially IXs who have a full turn's range.


Type IXs not only hit targets that are 35 hexes away, if they need to pass through 64 hexes to get their they can.
Two turn's worth of fuel, check out XFD2.1!
But that probably isn't going to be needed as you're drone can intercept incomming drones, fighters & PFs at speed 32 once they come inside R35 in a matter of a dozen impulses or two.


I'm also not convinced that ADDs are better than X1 E-racks.
If I move at my target and therefore his drone I can expect maybe an R3 and an R2 shot from each ADD launcher at each wave of drones.
If I get say two waves of drones That's an average of 2.33 drones of the enemy ship destroyed in a turn with an G-rack opperating as an ADD rack or the like.
On the other hand if the first set of drones is launch 17 impulses or more before the second wave strikes, I'll be able to launch 3 type IXs from the X1 E-racks and thus probably kill 3.0 enemy drones per launcher.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 02:08 am: Edit

Quote:

Then the Fastloaded heavies of the other X ships in the fleet ( and probably the X-fighter's Ph-Gs ) can really start to smash the drone chucking ship itself.



I like this idea.
The G-rack as ADD and an ADD itself forces the drones to be bunched up where they are easier to kill by T-bombs.
So too the E-racks force the ship to either hold the drones inside until it reaches the apogee of it's proximity or escort the drones with it's own phasers, thus making heavy weapons and even H&Rs into "the counter to the counter" as T-bombs were before them.


X1 E-racks ( less so older types because of the 12 hex limt ) will force the drones to have the minimum possible flight time...it's a different flavour to bunching and if the DDX-E keeps her two G-racks and her forrest of rapid pulsing phaser-1s then she just doesn't need the point defense capasity of a six G-rack mostrosity.
Although a duel role, DB and escort vessel would be cool with 6 GX racks; I just don't think such a ship would ever be built.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 03:34 am: Edit

2xGx racks will be much more efficient at killing drones than E-racks ever would be.

X-ships move very fast, and outrunning drones till they are all add'd down is not hard.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 05:49 am: Edit

Quote:

2xGx racks will be much more efficient at killing drones than E-racks ever would be.

X-ships move very fast, and outrunning drones till they are all add'd down is not hard.


Prove it!


What you are assuming is that A) the X ship goes very very fast because it can ( X1 Fed ships are infact slower than GW ships in an EW enviroment simply because the fastloaded overloads consume so much warp and 7-8 points of EW consume a very large amount of power ( E.G. Fed CX - 4 hk - 24 Photons - 8 EW leaves only 16 which means iether you ain't moving like the wind, you ain't using your ship to it's maximum capasity or you move real fast for only some of the turn ) or B) the attacker is so desperate to get drone hits that he times his drones to strike well after the primary fire point in the hope that the enemy will forget about the drones and fire phasers at the attacking ship.


Yes if the Fed CX only loads Standards he can generate 7 ECCM and move at 29 which is awefully fast but if the Fed wants to pull his teeth THAT MUCH then an attacker with IVF-Ph2 Sworfish drones will be in the running to win that battle so the value of Psuedo ADD-12s is again lost.


Type IXs have drawbacks, in that they can be shot down, the do use up drone control channels when they arn't close to their targets and E-racks have a slow launch rate.
X1 E-racks won't be the perfect drone defense but they'll be very good at changing the dynamic of drone based battles and that new flavour will be fun to toy around with.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 08:41 am: Edit

Quote:

Prove it!



Easily done. An ADD can fire as quickly as it wants, and is unaffected by EW. ADD's cannot be tractored, shot down, or avoided by their targets. ADD's also do not take up drone control channels. G-racks have three reloads, which means they can last a good while before being exhausted.

An E rack can only fire four times in one turn, and the drones they fire can be easily shot down or tractored. In addition, it takes control channels to use them. And, lastly, they only have one reload, and so have to spend alot of time offline to get the racks reloaded from stores.

In other words, for drone defense, G-racks are superior to E-racks...it's just self-evident. Now, against fighters, I'll grant the E-racks are a better choice.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 09:06 am: Edit

I don't think E-racks are a better choice against fast mega-fighters. Launching drones at mega-fighters might keep them at bay, but it won't kill any.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 09:44 am: Edit

Quote:

Prove it!

Easily done: try actually playing the game sometime.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 10:31 am: Edit

Prove it!

Are you kiddin'?

Mike and Jessica are right but they left out one important fact where the G-Rack shines like a sun against the stars (although Jessicas actually covers this becuase then you'd know).

The E-Rack can launch every 1/4 turn and the Type6 dose kill drones very well but while you are waiting for your E-rack to cycle (an entire 1/4 turn) the rest of the drone wave has moved in a killed you. You E-rack will do exactly squat against a simple Scatterpack load out unless you have six or you are running from them giving nearly all your maneuver and attention to them.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:08 am: Edit

Especially in the X-era, where everyone has access to fast drones, which can eat up a lot of ground in that quarter turn.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 05:01 pm: Edit

This is where the "one e-rack is useless, you need many E-racks" line comes in.

The downside of E-racks is also limited if the range is open.

You want ADDs in a knife-fight because with E-racks, the opponent can shoot at the VI or IX drones targetted at their own drones.

They could even shoot ADDs at them.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Of course a combo of G and E rack could be interesting. A ship with two G and two E racks and a couple Ph-Gs would be an effective escort indeed.

Consider an Kzinti X-Ship with 2xC, 2xG and 2xE racks operating as an escort. (Note the presence of the E-Racks makes available many DFdrns for the 12DFdrn scatterpack. Employed correctly it can be a devistating thing.)

Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one a bit.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 06:25 pm: Edit

It would be interesting to have a EX rack that combined the ADD fuction with the E-rack function.

Such a rack could also be viewed as an ADD with the E-rack function tacked on. It would indeed be an interesting critter in the Kzinti lineup.
IX drones for drone intercept at range with ADDs for close-up.

Whetehr its an improved E-rack or an improved ADD would hing on whether the EX would be able to auto-reload ADDs if left unused for a turn. The ADD does this but IIRC, the G/GX-rack doesn't. An EX rack that doesn't is a drone rack. If it does, it's an ADD.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

The rule would be simple. Use an ADD track and allow it to hold DFdrns. Launching a DFdrn uses up 8 ADD pulses (i.e. takes the rack out of use for 8 impulses). Where upon it can then resume launching ADDs or fire another DFdrn (which puts it on hold for another 8 impulses).

Maybe this could be reduced to 6 impulses. Timed well you could get five DFdrns in the air.


(note I'm using the term DFdrns because I don't want to keep retyping "Type VI and Type IX" over and over.)

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