The unofficial official answer I got on exactly when the Selt revolt occured, was that the 200 years was from the Tholians arrival in our Galaxy.

Which was Y79 IIRC. Placing it in Y-121.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 09:43 am: Edit

Mike Raper:

One question about your XPC design, why are the warp engines 6 boxes each when the PCX has 8 box engines? I realize that the X2 ships are not supposed to be combat-optimized monsters (at least until the Xorks show up) but this seems an actual step backwards from the PCX. Maybe 6 box engines with warp power capacitor are an improvement over 8 box engines, but without knowing the details of the WPC I can't really judge.

One other thought on phasers. How about rearranging the boxes so that the 2 ph-1s are joined together as a single RX ph-x array at the extreme stern? This would give the ship 6 ph-x, in one FX four-phaser array and one RX two-phaser array. The short range firepower would decrease slightly but the long range firepower would improve. This arrangement would also be better for web defense at three hexes (Tholian ship behind the middle ring firing at ship trapped in the outer ring). At that range two ph-1s with no drm do an average of 8.67 points of damage but an array of two ph-x with -1 drm do 9 points of damage. Or two ph-1s firing against a +2 drm do to EW/Scout support would do 6.33, compared to the two ph-x array against a +1, which would do 7.67 points. Not a huge difference to be sure, but the two ph-x array does beat two ph-1s at three hexes, which is a very important range for web defense. And if the XPC has to fight outside webs, the array is much better than the two ph-1s at longer ranges.

Just my .02 quatloos worth.

MJC:

No I haven't playtested your suggested dreadnought, obviously. All I can say is that I play the Tholians more than I play any other race and have come up with some notions of what does and does not work well for them. And at least in my experience the Tholians tend to do best (in open space) with tactics that emphasize their superior manueverability. My ideas are not infallible, of course. But they have served me pretty well so far and I'm not going to abandon them on a whim. Your ideas and mine about how to play the Tholians vary so widely that I don't think we will ever agree on this topic. We can't even have a discussion since we keep talking past each other.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:14 am: Edit

Alan,

That's a neat thought; hadn't considered it. It would make the PC a nasty little infighter. With FX and RX arcs plus all that maneuverability, you'd be hard pressed to get away from it.

RE, the six-box warp engine and WPC. This should work okay, though to be honest, I don't know yet, not having tried it. Each WPC will hold and generate 1 point of warp energy for movement for each six points of warp the attached engine has. This energy can be used for any movement purpose. What testing I've done so far has worked out fine, because it gives more movement opportunities without making the ship a power-hog. It would have to be tried out.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:34 am: Edit

Alan: Yes, I'm talking a specific class but would probably be the class to replace the PC and DD. I don't think that more power is required but unlike the Pinwheel that needs one web generator this requires each unit to have one operating. Since these are specific design units I see no need to make them pay extra. There will be a built in balancing. The ship may gain larger shields but will lose a couple weapons that can only be hit deep into the DAC (so you can't hit them to protect you operating ones but then this protects those too if you look at it the right way). Most of the cost/benefits would be on the SSD. For instance the HET numbers would be pretty bad as would the Turn Mode, comparatively.

Rules would be less than you might think. Short line references to other rule that will handle the situation. Joining uses the docking rule for instance. Or what happens if the webs holding it together are destroyed? Well, the combo has six generators, three of which are used to hold it together. If it get down to those three then the unit must separate at the beginning of the next turn or only operate with a maximum of one movement point. Web dissipates slowly so I can see the ship holding together for the remainder of the turn it loses its critical web devices. If it can get one repaired during EA of the next turn then it should be able to continue to operate normally.

It's a bit goofy I suppose but could be fun. I can see it working and not being too powerful and having some new tactical applications. Since you can't just take anything and toss it together it is not filled with those associated problems.

It was said about the conjectural Tholian BB (six PC type), if the Tholians could toss together such a thing would there be any PC hulls at all? There has to be limitations or you end up with something that replaces the entire fleet. If the "Tholtron" is as powerful and useful as a DNH then what's the point of ever having them separate? Weld them up and leave them a DNH. The "Tholtron" can only work, IMO and if it can work at all, if it is an act of desperation and/or surprise. As I have put if it is a defensive tactic. If it has an offensive use it is something that can invite war from a threatened Klingon Empire. Remember, the Klingons can soundly stomp the Tholians any time the truly wish to. The Tholians have not posed a serious threat to the Klingons aside from their original taking of the Holdfast. If they suddenly have something they could go on the offensive with this alone could cause a war. Both races know that.

If the thing is proposed as a sort of advanced pinwheel that requires specialty built units (that can also pinwheel normally) then you have a defensive unit that will make it tougher to cause harm. If you are creating something you could go on the offensive with then you invite destruction strategically and as such the idea is game breaking.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit

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Quote:

Your ideas and mine about how to play the Tholians vary so widely that I don't think we will ever agree on this topic. We can't even have a discussion since we keep talking past each other

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By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 06:05 pm: Edit

From a couple of posts I mate over a year ago in the 'X2 for the other guys' thread:

"I was looking through the earlier discussions on the Web Fist Casters, and the concept of the fist solidifying if it hits in 4 impulses.

We are talking about a dense, small amount of web energy, right? What if it solidifies after 4 impulses on the shield facing that it impacted?

It would not stop movement, because of its small size, but it *would* block non-Tholian weapons fire through that shield. Think of it as a way to deny weapons fire on your enemy's ship through a specific arc.

On the flip side, if you have an asset that needs to be protected, and its shield is about to fail, you can lob this at it, and block incoming fire for a period of time.

just my 2 cents
****
Guys, the idea wasn't to revamp the web fist into an uber-powerful weapon that could seriously hurt an SSCS with a single shot.

The idea behind my proposal was to create a new evoultionary path for the web fist. The premise was to *force* the enemy to maneuver if they wanted to continue in an offensive posture. The side effect of having web stuck to the hull and blocking the firing arc was that Tholian phasers could continue to damage the ship through the solidified web.

I envisioned the web to be too small and compact to anchor itself to spacetime outside the warp bubble of the target ship, yet large enough to block an entire 60 degree arc.

If used in a defensive battle (like around a globular or buzzsaw web), this could be absolutely devastating for an attacker, but in open space it would not be as much of a hardship unless a target is hit by several of these on multiple arcs.

In other words, this is *exactly* what the Tholians would use if the two Steves want to keep them a defensive "Keep the heck out of my back yard!" race..."

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 06:14 pm: Edit

What's interesting is that the 2-way nature of the web would mean that if you do this to a friendly ship, it would be immune to non Tholian weapons fire through that arc. Nothing would penetrate.

Theoretically it might impede seeking weapon impact and deaden ship and mine explosions too.


...Is this what you intended?

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 06:28 pm: Edit

That is indeed what I intended -- it could be used as 'emergency' shielding, but to do so would sacrifice offensive firepower. It would of course be a choice that the squadron or fleet commander would have to make.

Also note that a ship would not be able to do this to itself, so the 'defensive' use could not be used in a 1 on 1 duel.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 06:33 pm: Edit

You understand that this is ungodly powerful, right?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 06:33 pm: Edit

You understand that this is ungodly powerful, right?

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Then let's work to reduce the 'ungodly' part...

Perhaps it can't be applied to Tholian ships because of the way their hulls interact with web?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Isn't there a rule about not being able to shoot at your own ships in a battle?

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Yes

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 08:48 pm: Edit

You can put your own ships in stasis...

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 08:51 pm: Edit

That's not shooting.

This weapon looks like it actually fires at things....

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit

I see it as more of a firing mode for the Web Caster or Web Fist. Granted that this mode of firing doesn't do damage, it could fall under the weapon category.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 07:45 am: Edit

Doesn't Web stop the WEb strength Worth of damagesuch that a Strength 15 Web stop still allows 20 points of damage from a MSN to pass through.


We could dial down the intencity to say 1/5 of the usual web strength and that would mean you still take damage from Disruptors and Photons and the like.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 02:04 pm: Edit

What the frag are you talking about MJC?

This would be projecting an extremely small (as opposed to a normal cast web) clump of web onto a target's hull. The effect of this would be to block all weapons fire (excepting Tholian phasers, using normal interactions between the two systems) within an established shield arc for the duration of the web's solid phase.

We're not dealing with slowing the unit, or forcing a breakdown roll here. I'm also not proposing any form of damage reduction, save from explosions as per the established rules.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 07:17 pm: Edit

TI'm staying out of this particular potential mess. The WC is very finicky in being powerful vs Uber weapon. And I don't know offhand where this one would go in those categories.

RE: Firing at your own ships. IIRC the only race that has any rules against it are the Andromedans. (Its in the PA rule IIRC.)

Otherwise no one could fire at Souldra Vampire Shards that had settled on one of your ships. Since you cant fire at one latched directly to your own shields.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 12:53 am: Edit

M.D.:

Look at the diagram under G10.7 and think along the idea that if the drone impact or Photon strike or phaser blast strikes the web clump on the hull, the close proximity allows the attack to work like an explosion in that the web strength retards rather than full blocks the damage then all we need to do is add a rule that says web fired this way has an effective web strength of about a fifth of what it once was.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 12:34 pm: Edit

MJC, I can see the angle you're coming in at.

This stuff is dense enough to block all fire except Tholian phasers through the 60 degree shield arc. Period.

the unit is considered to be behind web, not stuck in the middle of it for purposes of weapons fire. Therefore, while it would mitigate mine and ship explosions, it would not allow weapons fire through.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 11:08 pm: Edit

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Quote:

the unit is considered to be behind web, not stuck in the middle of it for purposes of weapons fire. Therefore, while it would mitigate mine and ship explosions, it would not allow weapons fire through.

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By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 02:37 pm: Edit

This is why we were discussing not giving the Tholians the ability to throw this on their own hulls.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Mike Dowd;

The problem with that is that the Tholians can voluntarily "turn off" their web-pass ability. If this web can be made to "stick" to non-Tholian, non-cooperating hulls, with the specified effects, the Tholians would almost certainly be able to get it to stick to their own, cooperating hulls by some method analogous to turning the web-pass ability on and off.

Another problem is that the Tholians could use it on non-Tholian allied ships. Granted, those ships couldn't fire their phasers through it. But with good timing the allied ship could still get good use out of it. Your Federation buddy is trying to get in close with overloaded photons, but his #1 shield is down? Web the front of his ship, so he can charge the enemy. At the preferred firing range the Fed turns and exposes the intact #2 shield and unloads his (non-centerline) alpha-strike.

Kludge is right. The web caster is indeed finicky and modifications to the existing rules have to be approached carefully to avoid turning into a super-weapon. Maybe there's a way to make this work, but I'm hesitant about this one. I've semi-playtested several X2 web caster ideas that seemed workable initially but on trial turned out either to be almost useless or unbalancingly strong.

Sorry if this sounds too negative.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 07:15 pm: Edit

No worries Alan. At least you took the time to read the entire proposal before you commented.

Still, it would be nice to have a Tholian system that forces the enemy to maneuver without having to go to the trouble of blowing down a shield or 3. It would only enhance the defensive capabilities of a race in the deadlier 2X period.