Archive through July 22, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: First Generation X-ships: X1R The X-ship R Module: Archive through July 22, 2004
By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Actually,I'd prefer the G-rack simplicity of "you launch drones or ADDs for the entire turn".

I'd rather not mix modes during a single turn.

KISS and all that...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Well, I think you can already launch DFdrns from a G-Rack as a normal drone launch.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 08:57 pm: Edit

True, but you don't get to do the ADD thing until the following turn.

That's what I was getting at.

It's a drone rack OR an ADD for the entire turn, as determined by the first thing is shoots during the turn.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 10:50 pm: Edit

M.R.:


I don't think you're right on this, perhaps we ought ask SPP or M.F. but from my understanding all Drone racks have the same number of reloads as all the other racks on that ship as listed on the SSD. That being said a DDX-E since it already has three reloads for the GX-rack would also therefore have 3 reloads for the EX-racks not 1.


Quote:

Especially in the X-era, where everyone has access to fast drones, which can eat up a lot of ground in that quarter turn.


How many drones are we talking about and what is the range of their launch!?!
Sure a ship and some drones in 9 impulses could close range by 14 hexes ( if they both try ) but that's time enough for 2 launches of type IX drones...considering how ineffectual an ADD is when racing in on the enemy speed 32 drones it's not such a big difference (assuming the enemy drones are bunched in the same hex).


Quote:

The downside of E-racks is also limited if the range is open.


Are you talking about the 12 hex limit which doesn't apply to type IXs or the ability of the enemy vessel to guard it's own drones with phaser fire? Every phaser used to destroy my type IXs is one less phaser fired at my ship this turn.


Quote:

You want ADDs in a knife-fight because with E-racks, the opponent can shoot at the VI or IX drones targetted at their own drones.


On the other hand an ADD is useless against fighters and shuttles at R0 and a EX-rack isn't.


J.T.:

Yeah, a combo-EX-rack/ADD-launcher would be the acme of drone defense. Although giving the GX-rack the ability to chuck dogfight drones at E-rack rates would be slightly better.


Perhaps X1 E-racks should work as ADDs and chuck drones every 6 impulses whilst the GX-Rack gets upgraded to chucking dogfights every 8 impulses with 1/2 space drones so the G rack becomes the universal rack but the E rack becomes the ultimate expspression of anti-attrition unti work.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 10:54 pm: Edit

MJC,

Giving a G-rack the E-rack launch rate for VI/IX drones would be excessive. It's too many special features in one bundle. Might as well give it the C-rack launch rate with larger drones and create a single "uber-rack".

Combining an E rack and the ADD is already pushing it IMHO.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:07 pm: Edit

MJC:

Quote:

I don't think you're right on this, perhaps we ought ask SPP or M.F. but from my understanding all Drone racks have the same number of reloads as all the other racks on that ship as listed on the SSD.

No need to ask - you're wrong. There are existing SSDs which have 2 reloads for their ?-racks and 3 for their G-racks. The Fed BB for example; the Fed CAD for another.42

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:23 pm: Edit

John, I don't get it. You just want no change to the G-Rack??

I thought we were talking about a possible improved rack.

I was suggesting possibly for X2 a new rack that is a large G-Rack with E-Rack capabilities. I.e in addition to normal G-Rack capabilities and rules it can launch DF drones at a rate of once per 6 impulses and during that six impulses it cannot launch ADD BUT could launch ADD's after the six impulses or launch another DFdrn.

If it launches ADD or DFdrns it cannot launch regular drones and if it launches a regular drone then it cannot launch ADD's or DFdrns.

See what I mean?

What was the options of your idea?
Player can chose one of three modes: A rack mode, E-rack mode, or ADD mode. This mode is decided when one mode is first used and cannot be switched until the following turn or 8 impulses, which ever is longest.
Was that what you meant?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Loren,

It seems a few too many features.

Being able to chuck 4 drones, even 1/2 space drones, is a lot to add to a G-rack.

The problem is we start eliminating diversity with when technology gets too far towards "one size fits all"

Launching two half-space drones might be more reasonable. The G-rack becomes something that can do everything--but not as well as a native rack. G-racks before GX came along had less ADD space than an ADD-12 and have to fight for that space with drones. Thus the G-rack was more versitile, but that versitility came at a cost.

(I was also thinking in terms of X1 tech, not X2 - This is the "X1R" topic after all)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Quote:

Giving a G-rack the E-rack launch rate for VI/IX drones would be excessive. It's too many special features in one bundle. Might as well give it the C-rack launch rate with larger drones and create a single "uber-rack".


Maybe that could be an X2 upgrade...the CX-rack does after all need six spaces of drones to put it in line witht he GX-rack...and the ability to launch four type VIII drone across a turn break in 37 impulses would be fun.


Quote:

I thought we were talking about a possible improved rack.


Adding E-rack abilities to an ADD would be simply a matter of "can fire as an E-rack must wait 8 impulses from the previous firing ( or more ) irrespective of what was fired to fire a dogfight drone and must wait 8 impulses isrrespective of what is to be fired to fire the next release. If firing ADDs may fire at ADD rate after the first ADD is fired."


Adding E-rack abilities to the GX-rack would be fairly easy too.
"Fires as a G-rack. If firing dogfight drones may fire as an E-rack.
Must wait 8 impulses after prevoius ADD or dogfight launch to fire new dogfight drone. Can not fire an ADD until at least 8 impulses after a dogfight drone was launched.
Must wait 8 impulses after launch of one space or 1.5 space or 2 space drones or the start of the next turn ( which ever is longer ) to launch dogfight drones or ADDs ( and one space or larger drones can not be launch in the same turn as the launch of a dogfight drone or ADD or with 8 impulse of such a launch even in the new turn )."


Quote:

Combining an E rack and the ADD is already pushing it IMHO.


Well I guess it depends on whether we want escort X ships to be good at protecting the X-carrier or not.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:01 am: Edit

Quote:

Launching two half-space drones might be more reasonable.


Heck, mixing the one type IX launch on the same turn as the ADD fire would be a boost to it's abilitites.
If they were forbidden to be mixed then you'ld really want two or more probably three type IXs in a turn before you'ld have people willing to look to type IXs instead of ADDs.

It's a bit like the difference between a lance and chainsaw...people like the chainsaw a lot!
It's not until the guy with the lance gets on a horse that people start being willing to place their bets on him.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:04 am: Edit

I could accept an improved GX rack that allows ADD launch 8 impulses after drone launch.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:35 am: Edit

Are we talking about X1 or X2 here?

In X1, the Gx rack is standard equipment across the alpha quadrant. If you fire drones, you have a Gx rack.

For X2, each race can have a different rack for all I care.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 01:02 am: Edit

I don't mind if there was a rule in X1R that said, GX-racks got the ability to throw ADDs 8 impulses after a drone launch ( even if only limited to type IX drones ) with a corrisponding BPV change ( say 1.5 BPV per launcher ) from a say Y190.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 01:06 am: Edit

I'd be talking X2 for something like that.

John, it had just occured to me that the jump from ADDs to launching DFdrns is such a small one given their size similarities (ADDs are 1/2 space as well). I figured that with minor modification you could fit in a DFdrn. The delay would be in switching targeting systems. The ADD system is currently fast enough to launch much faster but DFdrns are physically slower than ADDs and toggling from one targeting system to another would be the major delay. The E-Rack targeting system and ADD system are closely related as rapid fire/small target systems so toggling between them could be done as fast as the slower system (e.g. the E-SYSTEM). The A-SYSTEM (the one that launches full size drones takes up the whole turn for itself.)

I'd never thought of it before this but it doesn't seem to be that far of a leap. Goes with my paradigm of X2 being more safty/defense minded in design.

Heh, call it the GE-Rack. Or GEX-Rack (pronounced Jex Rack).


[edit] I'll work up a rule proposal and present in as X2 and not go on with it here in the X1R thread.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 01:32 am: Edit

I've been saying for a long time that X2 E-racks should be able to fire ADDs every impulse and launch type IXs every three impulses.


If we have a late X1 refit of.
GX-racks get the ability to fire ADDs on the same turn as they fire type IXs ( but with an 8 impulse wait ).
And EX-racks (if any come to be) get the ability to fire ADDs as ADDs every impulse or type IXs every six impulses, then that would be pretty cool.


I wouldn't mind if the X2 period got a GXX-rack that was a complete uber rack subsuming the role and capabilities of the GX, CX and EX racks...but I might be alone in this.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 03:04 am: Edit

Post Deleted By Author

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 07:49 am: Edit

Quote:

Well I guess it depends on whether we want escort X ships to be good at protecting the X-carrier or not.



Huh? The non-x escorts the Feds have are already top-notch; making x-escorts just makes them that much more effective. They'll have more weapons, plenty of power, better protection, movement precedence, and improved drones via the GX rack. Just what the heck else do you need to be effective? Sounds like you want an escort that any idiot can fly and knock down drones and fighters with impunity and little to no skill, by virtue of some kind of hybrid "super rack" that fires dogfight drones and ADD's all in the same turn. Can't buy that one; it's too much. I don't object to a simple x-upgrade to the E-rack (adding a second set of reloads and fire type IX drones instead of standard dogfight drones) but that's more than enough.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:00 am: Edit

"I don't mind if there was a rule in X1R that said, GX-racks got the ability to throw ADDs 8 impulses after a drone launch ( even if only limited to type IX drones ) with a corrisponding BPV change ( say 1.5 BPV per launcher ) from a say Y190."

This doesn't fit the timeline. Neither the ISC nor the Andros are launching many drones so advancements in ADD technology aren't likly to see production until X2 when the races get back to fighting each other.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Tos: Funny you had to even point that out. I hadn't bothered since I thought it was a natural assuption. But you're right and right to point it out since it was missed.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Since the ISC do have fighters ( just checked module J ) and the Orions will still be running around chucking speed 32 drones ( some of them type VII/VIIIs ) I wouldn't be willing to say absolutely every advancement in anti-fighter/anti-drone weapon systems stopped.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Maybe not, but a combo X E and G rack is too much for this early. Maybe X2.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Quote:

Maybe not, but a combo X E and G rack is too much for this early. Maybe X2.


Well I've felt almost from the first day I read through the G-rack rules that from the day the G-rack was invented the search to be able to fire a dogfight drone and fire ADDs in the same turn would have begun...perferably at E-rack rates...and the capability of the type IX drone would have put a serious push on for this kind of ability!
A lot of X1R and even more X2 stuff will be R&D paid for during the GW ( or more accurately R paid for during the GW and then D paid for to make something out of the investment ) but not brought to fruition until it was too late for that particular conflict.


Perhaps I'm wrong but I would have expected every single US long arm to be using the M203 by this stage.
In a lot of ways the Helicopter as we know it today and which saved so many lived during the Korean conflict ( the biggest drop of feild mortality rates on record came between WWII and Korea ) was a product of massive numbers of devlopment dollars thrown into the project during WWII but which didn't get to work until after the war.
So too I would expect that if in Y190 the ability to fire G-racks as a type IX launcher and ADD in the same turn came to pass all the ships would be refited with the ability irrespect of whether or not there were many drone chucking opponents simply because you just don't know who you'll be at war with in 18 months time.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 09:10 pm: Edit

What advancement in drones might occur during this time period? Wasn't the last drone introduced the stonefish in J2? See (FD17.12)a type IV with a anti-drone in the forward position. Now make this a type VIII. It would have the same limited self defense capability against other drones. Would this represent a greater problem for the ADD systems?

For X1R: has anyone suggested a 1 space photon package for a drone. Or is this idea dead at the launch rack?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 09:23 pm: Edit

How many ADD shots does the stonefish fire?

The big problem for ADDs in the Fast drone and post fast drone period is they can be gotten past with bad luck.

There's a one in six chance of slipping through both an R3 and R2 shot and if you slip through R3 R2 & R1 it's a one in 9 chance.


ADDs are awefully good as they are but they can still be improved a bit.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 10:01 pm: Edit

MJC,

It works all respects like a starfish except with only 1 ADD. So it can fire at 3 hexes or less. The type VIII has an ATG frame and 2 spaces of explosive with a stonefish in the forward postion. It is called a super stonefish. The same thing can be done with a stingray. A type VIII with a type IX (super stingray).

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