(R1.DW1) CIVILAN SALVAGE SHIP (CSL): Early on, the Orions masked the arrival of their Salvage Cruisers by selling (and using) a similar hull that was not optimized for covert operations. The ship was purchased by several trading concerns (including a few Kzinti and Klingon one) for use as a general purpose support unit for their freighter fleets. While having a minimal cargo capacity, the ships worked hard to keep the ships of the trading companies moving and minimized the delays cause by ship breakdowns, whether caused by mechanical failures, raiders, or the builders of the CSL. TransFederation Salvage and Repair actually maintained a small fleet of these ships across the Federation and into friendly nations to support (for a ‘nominal’ fee) independent and small trading concerns.

The ship, as built, still has a +1 stealth bonus from the hull shape, despite not having the ‘pirate’ hull coating. Some operators ‘un-tuned’ their engines to make the civilian nature of the ships more obvious, while others liked the slight stealth in hopes that pirates would not notice them as easily. The engine modifications cannot be done in scenario unless the ship has a legendary engineer, and then it takes him 3 full turns of doing nothing else. An Orion SAL cannot pose as a CSL in this manner because the signature would still be distinctly different.

Take the SSD for the Orion SAL (R8.4) and remove one drone rack from each wing. Change fixed phaser-1s to phaser-2s. The forward option mounts can only take phaser-1s, -2s, -3s, type-A, -E drone racks, and ADD. The ship can NOT double its engines and does not have a suicide bomb. The rear cargo hold is reduced to six boxes, but are 50 point boxes as the shielding and other special modifications are not there. The rear tractors are replaced by 4 repair boxes.

YIS: Y150; Exp Str: 10; Comand: 3; Crew: 30; BP: 6.

No civilian concern modified the CSL as a carrier, PFT or other such unit as it would be economically unfeasible and unneeded. A few governments purchased the CSL and normally modified it as the RSL repair ship.


(R1.DW2) REPAIR SALVAGE SHIP (RSL): A rare variant of the CSL, the RSL was used by a few governments to supplement the slower repair freighters while allowing fleet repair resources to be used in more important areas.

The RSL is simply a CSL with a four box cargo hold and six box repair bay. YIS: 165; all other data same as CSL.

(R1.DW3) FREE COMMERCE FRIEGHTER (FC): This is a civilianized version of the Orion Slaver freighter. It was used by civilian transport companies for priority cargoes, much like the Free Trader and Armed Priority Transport were used.

Take the Slaver (R8.5) SSD and replace the phaser-1s with phaser-2s. The option mounts are under the same rules as the civilian Free Trader (R1.9). There is no suicide bomb, engine doubling, and the stealth bonus is +1 with the same notes as the CSL. YIS: 128; Crew: 8; BP: 2; Explo Str: 5.

(R1.DW4) FREE COMMERCE CARRIER (FCV): Sightings of the Orion Slaver-V caused a few trading concerns to consider modifying the Free Commerce to a similar design. Most simply decided it was not economicly viable, but there were several reports of a FC carrying a full squadron of F-7 Sheyang fighters.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Donovan:

Having made a similar suggestion in the past, I can tell you that "stealth" has to be built in from the keel up.

Its apparently more than just special coatings or (in the example that I made ) "bolted on".

Dont get me wrong, I like the suggestion, but just pointing out a possible flaw.

the +1 stealth bonus may not be possible...

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 11:04 pm: Edit

I was basing my thoughts on the comments on the YCR and YLR. The stealth is more of a leftover from the old hull and if it is yanked, no problem in my mind.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:27 am: Edit

Donovan:

I don't have my rules with me, but IIRC there are examples of the orion slaver freighter in "legitimate" commercial service, you might want to verify the ship description in section R# Orions Pirates.

(NOT being critical here!)

Ingeneral, I am intrigued by the idea of a Orion Slaver variant CVE...Perhaps some one would consider putting a SSD together?!?

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:37 am: Edit

There is one, I don't have my stuff beside me, but I think it was in J2.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:46 am: Edit

I could see a mercenary FCV escort group available for "rent a cop" convoy escort duties.

what kind of carrier group would you see...and how much value does a squadron of F7's add to a convoy vs pirate scenario?

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:22 am: Edit

The F7 thing was kinda a joke, but could make an interesting scenario... possibly with an actual Orion SVL carrying them because it was all they could afford on 'rent a cop' duty.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 12:08 am: Edit

I would immagine a strike group of F7's would be the most affordable option when considering fighters generally available...and the F7's could be bought "over the counter" so to speak!

I'll have to pull J2 and look at it again.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit

Thing is, ever since these last few posts, I've actually considered doing a scenario where an Orion SVL with G-7s (Gorn F-7s with K-torps) must defend a important cargo ship from a rival DBR. Have several special rules concerning the fact that the DBR is trying to not get caught betraying his cartel.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Try it, after wasnt it in one of the last captains logs 'its better to have proposed...'

I have found that it is some of the special rules of various scenarios that add spice and variation to the game rather than just equal BPV slug matches. (They have their place, but after a while it can get a bit tedious.)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 02:48 pm: Edit

An Orion Vs. Orion scenario...huh, I don't recall if there is one. Good idea!

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Loren, wasnt there one called Tractor pull? (or The Orion Tractor pull?)

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 02:12 am: Edit

In support of this proposal, I have to point out that a CL fiction piece has a "civilian" orion with special sensors helping fight the first ANDRO...

So, the idea of a civilianized orion should be routine, and NOT a huge exception. Else the Klinks and Roms and Lyrans and Kz and etc would just shoot them on sight. Hence the need for some covering legit uses...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 10:55 am: Edit

Mike Grafton:

The problem with "legit uses" is that they are not very exciting and pointles to game out... unless...there were "civilian orion legitimate convoys" that were attacked by "Illegitimate Orion" pirates...

Then the question is, could such "legitimate Orion Merchants" corss major races borders? Routinely?

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

Depends on how widespread the use of civilian versions of Orion ships are. Some non-Orion merchants may use them if they are economical to operate. Given how many of the races seem to rely on trade, they may not be able to afford to turn these ships away.

Orion merchants, meanwhile, may simply resort to bribes to get across the border.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

This might actually fit into an existing concept in F&E, the Commercial Convoy...(the one where each race builds a convoy and sends it out to the capital of a allied major race in exchange for economic points worth of free trade benefits...)

If such "legitimate" Orion civilized convoys existed prior to or during the General war, they could be treated as wander monster encounters, opportunity for economic trade (a la the Commerc ial Convoy concept) or even hostages for Orion Pirate activity (assuming the pirates care what happens to the civilianized convoys).

Each time a convoy crosses the border, both major races receive 1 EP worth of bribes...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Allow me to make a couple of engineering comments....


1. Orion ships are really bad cargo haulers (25 point cargo boxes) because of their odd hull shapes. Hence, if I have the option to buy a civilianized Orion or a standard freighter, the standard freighter will haul more tons per dollar. From this sense, the idea that Orion warships evolved from orion freighters doesn't hold water.

2. Stealth is more hull shape than coating; you could argue that every ship in the game has coating of some kind. Hull shape (thin cross-section, slab sides to deflect scanner energy away from the transmitter, passive receptors on wings to let you rotate the ship to present the thinnnest aspect) is pretty much why the Orions have it and nobody else does.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 12:05 am: Edit

This isnt a rebuttle, but a observation from a non engineering point of view:

Merchants (be they Orion, Human or Hydran etc) want to make money using the 'Buy Low-Sell High' business model...

If Orion style ships can get thru the border while standard freighters get stopped, searched and impounded, then the draw back of less efficient cargo capacity is actually an advantage because "normal" freighters can't compete against smugglers specially designed ships.

The cost of goods sold would be higher using Orion designed transport, but its in an artifical market since the effect of Commerce/ revenue and customs patrols form barriers of entry thus preventing competion.

One could infact argue that the Orions "Blockade runners" are a result of the various Major Races efforts to control their economies, satisfying the demand for products. That demand could be "Old Earth Style Hand Phasers, Tribbles or Romulan Ale...or it could be Drugs, Orions Slaves or Horta's but if there is a market or demand for something, then the Orions would be the logical agency to satisfy that demand...and civilianized Orion Designs just might be the tools used to get the job done.

Just a thought.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 12:38 am: Edit

Smugglers and "civilian ships" are not the same thing. Orion being a generic term for those that routinely break the law, anybody using a stealth design for smuggling IS an Orion, not a civilian.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 07:55 am: Edit

SVC, back to my main goal in this discussion, for the 'stealth' thing was intended to be a 'leftover' artifact of the hull, not something that was even desireable for the ships. But, is the concept of a civilian ship similar to the Orion Salvage cruiser an acceptable idea? I'm not talking so much a cargo hauler as I am something that is kinda a cross between a tow truck and a roadside repair shop that trading firms might use to support their freighter fleets.

I know that this is something that could be done with modified repair freighters and such, but my proposed CSL would have superior speed and abilities.

I had at one point envisioned something closer to a galactic tow truck, but that was getting closer to the civilian tug idea which, to my understanding, has been discouraged due to the fact that in wartime, such ships would be fedralized for tug duties, giving the race a dozen or more tugs.

I guess my question is, is this a dead proposal?

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 09:49 am: Edit

I'm not talking so much a cargo hauler as I am something that is kinda a cross between a tow truck and a roadside repair shop that trading firms might use to support their freighter fleets.

That is basically same description given to the Salvage Tug which was recently published in R8.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 10:03 am: Edit

How similar? Similar enough for the designs to be related? No. Similar enough for them to do similar jobs. Probably. Civilian tugs able to do F&E tug missions won't happen; all kinds of civilian cargo haulers already exist but I'll look at any new ones.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 10:30 am: Edit

How about a "shipyard tug"?

Only has impulse engines, maybe a phas-3, at least 1 (probably 2-3) tractor beams.

Used for assembling large bits of starships or guiding in damaged vessels. Would also be useful for preventing terrorist ramming the base with shuttles (helping the base out there). 4-6 impulse would probably be enough to handle a DN under sublight movement.

Probably no bigger than 1/4 MC.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit

David: what's wrong with the Harbor Tug in R8? You have seen it, right?

It meets all of your specs, including the 1/4 MC, except that it has warp engines (which I can't see it doing without). BPV is 18/14, so you're not going to see much of a price break beyond that.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Nothing wrong with it - I simply don't have R8 and didn't know about it.