The Federation (and other races involved in the Andromedan War) found that much of the Andromedan Technology was unusable to them. The failure was not so much scientific or lack of ability, as a failure to understand the Andromedan method. One example was the failure to use the Temporal Elevator in the same manner the Andromedans were able to. The Andromedans were able to equip bases with TE with the restriction (among others) that only allowed the operation of TE's with positional stabilizers (see rules G31.112 and G29.0).

After operation Unity, the Klingons discovered in the ruble of one of the destroyed Andromedan bases a partially functioning TE. As the Klingons and the Federation were allies at the time, the Klingons shared the results of the investigation (since the Klingons concluded the information to be tactically and technically useless, they hoped to trade the info with the Federation for something useful).

The Federation, being Scientifically curious and inquisitive were overjoyed at the trade and published the results in the Science journals.

Years later (well into the Trade wars) a bright Star Fleet officer came across the references, and devoted some time to the subject. Captain Moffet (possible relation to the US Navy officer and early aviation Pioneer of Lighter than air rigid airships) determined that the TE could not be used by alpha races due to the differences between Andromedan positional Stabilizers and alpha races understanding of the same technology.

He did, however, determine that if a ship generated a "stable warp field" at speed zero with the intensity of warp 3, (energy equal to move 27 hexes per turn) said ship could move using impulse power at a speed of 1 hex per turn.

such a revelation did not garner much interest or support at the time, but a number of restrictions were noted:

1. the ship had to satisfy its turn radius as if the ship were moving at warp 3 (i.e. had to move ahead so many hexes before it could make a turn.
2. to ascend or descend levels (see rule G31.13) the ship would have to devote energy based on its size class. (4 points for size class 4, 6 points for size class 3 etc...)
3. See rule G31.37 concerning cloaking devices.

Proposal: That the Federation developed the limited ability to use rule G31.0 Temporal Elevator for specially equipped ships.

First, that the Federation ship may substitute Positional Stabilizers (rule G31.112 and G29.0) for warp energy equal to movement of 27 hexes per turn (if the Federation ship fails to pay for such energy in energy allocation or loss of power thru battle damage the ship suffers from rule G31.1321 "uncontrolled descent".

The first test beds for this technology were a number of frigates, the USS Hindenburg, the USS Graf Zeppelin, the USS Akron, the USS Macon and possibly the USS Los Angeles.

No changes needed to the SSD's.

By Frank Di Vincenzo (Lordsnotrag) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Would the ship still be able to pay additional energy to TAC? I would figure so. But it seemed like a good idea to ask.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Frank Di Vincenzo:

from a game perspective, it probably should ...

but IMO (I hesitate to say it) from a MECHANICS perspective, the answer should be 'No'...remmember that the ship is paying for speed 27 (to generate the ability to use Temporal Elevator) ...and must comply with turn mode restrictions... even though the actual tactical speed during the game is impulse speed (1 hex per turn) ... any deviations would risk "upsetting" the delicate balance of the Temporal Elevator with catastrophic results.

I should have listed what those negative results could be... first would (I think) be potential risk of suffering break down (possibly subject to the HET bonus?!?) and if the ship did suffer a break down for some reason, it should also be forced to suffer from G31.1321 "uncontrolled descent".

The TE ship is gaining a huge benefit, the value of the TE to affect seeking weapons...it is trading the speed potential of warp 3 for it and slows to 1 hex per turn...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:21 pm: Edit

I'm not sure I like the idea of adapting a base defense system to starship combat.

I'm not opposed to equipping an X-base with it.

Also, I'd rather not make the system broadly available. I like an absolute power cost of 27 Warp, which makes it somewhat usable by cruisers (X and otherwise) and moreso by SC2 units.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 05:55 pm: Edit

John Trauger:

Andoromedan technology being what it is (what ever that is!) it may not be openly adaptable to most races abilities to use.

What I think would be an option to consider, is the ability of an attacking force so equipped to be able to survive the approach battle with Star base(s), or large numbers of attrition units or whatnot.

making it available to X-bases will make X bases more difficult to attack and destroy.

as to broadly available, I could easily see such a system be on a par with Klingon Staisis field generators or like Federation SWACs...where you might get 1 or two a year.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Since bases don't move, but this ship would (even if only at 1 hex per turn) you need to answer some questions about how it would interact with mines. Extrapolating from the rules the Andro bases themselves use, this might provide a way for ships to safely cross minefields with no possibility of being damaged except by direct-fire captor mines (whose range would be increased due to the "elevator" effect). This could cause a major change in the dynamics of base assaults.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:17 pm: Edit

My gut feeling is that this is a bad idea, though I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if someone can make a really strong case for it. But I think the default position should always be that for those technologies defined as racially unique (Tholian web tech, Seltorian web breakers, all Andro tech, Jindarian warp rail guns, Klingon SFGs, etc.) the bar should be set very high for anyone arguing that the tech in question should be made more widely available.

Just my .02 quatloos worth.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 07:08 pm: Edit

I'll agree. Issues with movement alone toss it from questionable to "really big mess to balance."

Then there's the attendant question of, "If the Feds could make a mobile elevator, why didn't the Andros?"

By Frank Di Vincenzo (Lordsnotrag) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 07:51 pm: Edit

My bigger thought is: the Temporal elevator works well for bases because they can't move under normal conditions. The TE gives them a method of "moving away" from things.

Now a ship doesn't have the problem of moving waway from things. Kinda the whole point of ships: they move.

So, what would be the advantage of using 28 points of movement for moving up the TE when they can just move 28 hexes laterally instead?

Might be neat for an "experimental ship thigie" though...

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:07 pm: Edit

I was using the TE with a 'design/new race' ship over 8 years ago. It was fun. Certainly nothing that need be developed past stellar shadows for anyone though.

And it really required no rules modifications at all.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

Re: the movement interaction with mines. My "gut" reaction is to treat the two parts separately, first is the movement, if speed 1 triggers the mine the second part, (the damage) is dependent on the level of elevation...if the TE ship is "beyond" the range effects of the mine explosion (due to being "High enough" in the elevator). the just follow the TE rules for objects in the elevator...and anything not in the elevator gets treated normally.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

Re: Base assaults using TE & tactical movement rule. Yes, you are correct, it would force a massive change in base assaults...but with out play testing, I can't quantify how big a change it would be.

on the one hand, you have a force able to approach the starbase virtually impervious to fire from the starbase, (at least untill it gets close enough for the phaser IV's get within range), yet on the other, the assault force will be SLOW...so slow that 100 turns would potentially elapse before the TE ship(s) close to the Starbase hex.

Another odd thing, the defenders would hold the tactical advantage of speed and manuver...sort of like a middle ages seige of fortifications where the 'TE ship' (acting out the role of sappers or miners) try to get close enough to the city walls to force the breech...

One consideration would be the TE ships main mission is to clear the mine fields so that the main assault body of ships won't have to...

a specialist unit whose only purpose is to help reduce starbase assaults to manage able proportions.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:19 pm: Edit

John Trauger:

You make a good point about the movement issues, As did Alan Trevor, One point that was implied by you in the part you said, "If the Feds could make a mobile elevator, why didn't the Andros?" questioning how the Federation could improve theTE beyond the ability of the Andromedans, should be addressed.

Would the proposal be better from your perspective if it were less capable than the Andy version?

Not sure how, but just to throw out some ideas, what if there were a time limit on the feds use of the TE? sort of like the natural limit the Klingons have with the SFG? say on turn zero it costs the same as 27 hexes of movement, then for each turn beyond the first, add one point of movement to the eqation, so on turn 2 it costs the same as 28 hexes of movement, and on turn 3 29 hexes of movement and so on...that puts a definite limit on how long a ship could support the TE.

It also neatly addresses the movement/base assault issue since most ships have limited warp power available.

an example, (using a Fed FFG) to generate warp 3, the ship needs to put 9 points of warp energy into movement on the EA (energy allocation) and 1 point of impulse power for movement (1 hex). on turn 2 it would need to spend 9 1/3 points of warp power and 1 point of impulse energy.

That gives the FFG the ability (over a 9 turn period) to travel 9 hexes via the Temporal Elevator...possibly enough to clear a normal mine field...and possibly map it.

To address the question of "why didnt the Andros", perhaps they did, and felt the limits of impulse speed and the time limit duration of the moveable TE didnt justify the installation in ships.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Jeff,

We can play what-if games all day.

Bottom line: Given the obvious advantages of a mobile TE, the Andros would have deploy the TE on motherships at the very least. Since they didn't, the most likley answer is because they couldn't. So if the Feds could understand the TE well enough to deploy it on a ship, then they have figured out the technology well enough to elaborate or improve on its usage by the Andros. (Remember, Andro tech is supposed to be incomprehensible).

It'd be a big step for anybody to just get a TE working on a base, let alone finding new uses for it.

Actually, the gradually increasing warp cost does not at all address the movement issues. What happens when a TE-eqipped ship enters a mine hex? Can a TE be used to move a base assault fleet "over" a minefield? How does it interact with ESGs, webs, asteroids, gravity waves, ion stoms...? See the point?

The answer is to make the TE like the stasis field: requiring the ship to be stationary. A TE ship would be able to TAC or HET freely, however.

There's still the whole "Nobody knows how Andro tech works" issue.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 10:43 pm: Edit

John:
Given that "Nobody knows how Andro tech works", it does not prevent technological progress from occurring anyway. The Alpha quadrant races learned how to produce "X" batteries (i.e. batteries that could hold more than a single point of power) ... presumably they did it in a manner different than the way the andomedans did it.

Whether the Federation could replicate the TE the same way the Andromedans did, or not is not a material issue, since the proposal assumes that the end result mimics what the Andromedans could do with fixed bases and postional stabilizers with a ship... my personal opinion is that if the Federation deploys a mobile TE, they found a way that is fundamentally different than the way the Andies did. (which if true, explains why the andies did not put a TE on the mothership.)

Second, I agree with you that "It'd be a big step for anybody to just get a TE working on a base, let alone finding new uses for it." That is why I listed the "what if's" as a way to address the issue. by giving the mobile TE's a time limit, we limit how effective it is or could be. if we add a "cooling off" requirement, (say 10 turns, or 320 impulses) before it could be activated again is another limit (or even 5 turns or 50).

yet another limit, is if only one TE could be operational within 100 tactical (sfb) hexes at a time. That would eliminate the "fleet assault" issue for taking down starbases.

As for mines, I say if the mobile TE ship activates a mine while traveling at impulse speed, I say let it...the mine explosion affects everything in the hex normally, and if the TE ship is with in range of the explosion fine, (that would be levels 0 or 1) the current rule covers it. if the TE ship has sufficent "altitude" to be outside of the explosion, that would be covered in the existing rule.

ESG, cloaks, and webs & asteroids and etc are all already covered in the current rule...did you have a specific issue that you feel needs to be addressed?

As to the TE ship and TAC and HET, I fear I must disagree. My vision (such as it is!) is that the mobile TE ship is following a set course (perhaps it should be required to plot its course in advance?!?) as if it were traveling at warp 3 (27 hexes per turn) and must comply with normal movement rules for speed 27... now, to be fair, I could see a TE ship entering a hex with a planet, or large asteroid be required to Involuntarily descend (see rule G31.1321) and lose the benefits of TE...

I feel your points about mine fields are particularly important, and I know I havent addressed them properly (Yet!) but a mobile TE option would be virtually ideal for clearing mine fields (assuming time was not a factor!)... a TE equipped mine sweeper could litterally sanitize any existing mine field with virtually no danger to itself...

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit

You open up a can of worms by saying "sure the Feds produced a TE, just using different technology."

That open the door to "different" methods of adding Power Absorbers, T-R beams and Dis-devs to the game. It's trying to have your cake and eat it too.

It's andro tech. It don't work for anyone besides andros.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 06:49 pm: Edit

But there are examples of comparable technologies... The Andromedans have warp power and phasers, (although iirc the R section notes implies it is only an approximation of phaser 2's...) and I don't believe you can just discount the battery analogy in its entirety.

By your reasoning, there should not be ANY common examples... and infact, given the proposal is limited to ships only, is a distinction from what the Andromedans could do with the technology.

John, you are making a distinction that some how andromedan technology is incomprehensible to the major races of the game... but the problem is they and the Federation (and the Klingons and romulans etc) all live in the same galaxy that is subject to the same laws of physics and gravity and light and time.

I dont know what or how the Pwer Absorbers, T-R Beams and Dis devs work, but the description in rule G31 is explicit. It states that the TE device creates a "rift" in time (or IIRC a distortion in time)... This proposal is substituting Andromedan technology that some how keys off of a bases positional stabilizer to allow the TE to function with a ships warp drive...and does it by manipulating the warp engineering from movement in "real time" that allows up to 32 hexes of movement in a single game turn (note total movement by drones and plasma torpdos, not by ships which are limited to 31 hexes per turn) to droping the actual speed per turn to sublight while allowing it to "fly" in Temporal Elevator shaft.

It is litterally trading ships movement (at 27 hexes per turn) for the ability use TE.

Bottomline, I am simply suggesting that there may be other ways to attain the same results...and to me using a ships warp drive which already has the ability to move a ships hull thru space and time might serve as the means to acheive the same affect.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Once more and for that last time:

You are trying to add Andro tech to Alpha Sector ships.

Good luck.

You'll need it.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 01:47 pm: Edit

John, Thank you for your comments.

By benjamin sun (Ben2207) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:19 pm: Edit

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ;).

Seriously, this opens a can of worms. Next thing we'll see proposals for webcaster Fed ships and Tholian fighters in Federation service (oh wait um you already proposed such a thing in the F-21)

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:31 pm: Edit

I cannot agree more with John or Benjamin on this (and especially John). If you want to play with TE's, play Andro. If you want to play with photons, play fed.
And why is it always the feds that have to come up with this. Why not the Tholians, or the WYN.
The Feds have Everything. EVERYTHING!!!!! (yes, I"m yelling).
Booo on this whole concept.
Nice creative effort, I'll grant. But . .
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO