There is such a cat but it is a Heavy PF and relegated to SSJ ONLY.

Too bad too. HPF's would be perrrfect for X2 Xork era.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 09:39 pm: Edit

I guess so would PFT ESGs....

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:00 pm: Edit

You mean PF ESG's?

Most PFT's already have ESG's.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:24 pm: Edit

You could have a PF based on a trimarian conversion of the Lyran Interceptor, which works fairly well.

By Bennett Eugene Snyder (Planner) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Forgot about SSJ. Taking the Interceptor and tri-hulling it sounds interesting. Presuming the interceptor is smaller than the PF, the refit could make it about the same size, and makes more use out of the remaining interceptors in an offensive mode.

By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Considered that myself, but considering that the remaining lynxes were probably worn out too much to be worth converting, the only way I could could see a "Snow Lynx" being born would be if it had been built instead of hte Bobcat.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

I expected the trimarian interceptor PF to be a design built instead of the catamaran. Most DW and CW were new construction, why would the Lyrans not consider applying the principles to the smaller units?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:40 pm: Edit

You guys may have hit on a useful idea, RE: trimaran INT.

While PFs are expendable nobody signs on to them for suicide duty. (OK the Hydarn FB PFs are an exception.) ESGs take 2 spaces, so all other HWs would be removed.

Making an ESG PF nothing but a R4 target before its ESG would hit. Other than as a group drone/hellbore defense it's use would be to limited IMO. And it wouldn't be very good at the listed jobs.

I haven't followed this thread but just thought I would stick my oar in

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:53 pm: Edit

The Interceptor Trimaran has been posted before:

Reposting:

---

Quote:

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 10:36 am: Edit

Through my webpage I was contacted by a fellow player, one Jeff Anderson, to work out a design he had but couldn't draw.

After a few back-and-forths he developed this: The Lyran Straycat PF Flotilla

This is basically a Tri-maran conversion of the Lynx Interceptor. Functionally identical to the Bobcat, the Straycat has its bonus at middle ranges (where the Ph-2 is a better weapon than the Disr it replaces). The improved Disr arc would also allow the Straycat to fight effectively out of 5 (instead of 3) shield facings, allowing it to take more damage before having to withdraw.

An excellent design, in my opinion, but Jeff (who may be joining the BBS sometime soon) and I wanted to get input from other players...⁴²

---

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 02:51 am: Edit

Not a bad design, but it doesn't stack up to the competition. Compared to the Arachnid, for example, it is identical except that it trades 2xp1 for 3xp2 (pretty much even trade) and loses one disruptor (i.e. 1/2 the heavy weapons).

Or, compare it to the Seltorian PF, which has a PC instead of the disruptor (pretty much even) but 3xp1 instead of 3xp2 (not even close).

Or compare it to the G1. Here, you are basically trading an APR and 2xp3 for two drone racks and an ADD. Even against the lousy G1, this design comes up a little short.

To be on par with other races, the Lyran PF would need 2xdisr, 3xp2 and 2xp3. That's just to balance the firepower; this doesn't address the limitations of the disruptor as a PF weapon.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 03:28 am: Edit

It was a fairly common concept. My implementation included an extra phaser-2 on a 360 degree mounting compared to the version proposed above. That is, 4xPh2, 2x Ph3 and 1 Disr.

Anyone want to try to design a completely different technology to give the Lyran PF a reasonable defense that does not entail all the drawbacks of the ESG. Stellar Shadows obviously but also needs a reason why it could not be used on ships.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 08:27 am: Edit

Do we need to give the Lyran an ISC war upgrade to P1 ala K-refit? Would it help enough to upgrade the disruptors to FAR/FAL R=15? Heck, even R=12 would be an improvement againt fighters and PFs.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 09:14 am: Edit

Some PFs are better than others; such is life.

The Lyrans were the first out of the gate with a PF design. That gives them the advantage of two long war years where they were able to field unopposed flotillas (three years on the Kzinti front), but the disadvantage of everyone else getting to build theirs with the Bobcat as a baseline. The situation is much like the Fed BC; as mentioned in the Tactics Manual, it was the first BCH out of the gate, but that strapped the Federation with a mediocre design.

Not everyone can have the Gorn PF (probably the best in the game, excepting that piece of cheese that is the Buccaneer)...and if they did, would you really want to see one -- and only one -- race have all of their ships decked out as casual tenders? The Lyrans make up for a "first but mediocre" PF design by having so blasted many of the darned things, and that's probably for the best.

Within the historical context, the Bobcat is just fine as it is.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 09:32 am: Edit

That said, if you just absolutely must insist on screwing around with the Bobcat, try upgrading the 2xP3 to 2xP2. I think you'll find that a pair of disruptors and 4xP2 make for a mean little boat (so long as you charge the capacitor ahead of time). Given the history and deployment of Lyran PFs, I think it's entirely unnecessary, but at least it keeps the same number of weapons and doesn't venture into putting those expensive Phaser-1 upgrades on an attrition unit at the same time as they were being denied to destroyers.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:47 am: Edit

I agree with Jessica. It seems like whenever someone notices that a race has the worst something, somebody proposes a way to make it better. Somebody's gotta have the worse one, right?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:53 am: Edit

That should be posted at the top of every proposal section on this board.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

Since the Lyrans are the first out of the gate with PF's I would think they would be first out of the gate with an upgrade. Perhaps taking the time of the ISC conquest to develope it.

Sure they enjoyed two years of free reign in PF land but how long would the inventors of the PF stand for having the low end PF in the Galaxy?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:57 am: Edit

PFs are attrition units. They die horribly, very quickly. They are cheap and fast to build, that is the entire point.

Following the normal upgrade thought process will get you a slightly better PF, that takes slightly longer to build and costs slightly more, which totally defeats the design concept of fast, cheap and lots of em.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

SO the Lyrans should just stay happy with their inferior product and take the jibs and jokes from the other races at the bar because in the end we all die the same?

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Edit

The Lyrans can have a huge number of PFs per battle compared to other races.

So the Lyrans stay happy with quanitity over quality, which is exactly what you want in an attrition unit that you are going to lose tons of.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit

The P-3 to P-2 upgrade Jessica suggested makes more sense Lyran-wise than a P-2 to P-1 upgrade.
a) The Lyran CW was built with P-2s.
b) Nearly all Lyran SC4 ships have only P-2s.
c) The Phaser refit on Lyrans upgrades P-3s on SC2 and SC3 ships to P-1s, but only to P-2s on SC4 ships.

Given all of this, the Lyrans have some problems with P-1 tech, and would probably not put P-1s on an attrition unit. But, upgrading P-3s to P-2s does fit into the concepts.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:28 pm: Edit

A phaser upgrade makes sense. For a few years, they have PFs while the others don't, so they get away with having an inferior design. But, by Y180 they are facing superior Hydran designs, and by Y181, superior Kzintis. I would think by Y183 they would be upgrading.

I agree they wouldn't put p-1s on a PF. The p-3 to p2 upgrade makes sense. Or, it could be that they switched to a newer design (such as the Straycat) that included an upgrade in weaponry.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Andy,

Yes, they are facing superior Hydran designs in Y190...when they run into a force with a Hydran PFT, and even then they'll likely have a two-to-one numerical advantage. More often than not, the opposing force won't have PFs, permitting the Bobcats to do anti-fighter work unimpaired by enemy PFs.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 09:27 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

PFs are attrition units. They die horribly, very quickly. They are cheap and fast to build, that is the entire point.

Following the normal upgrade thought process will get you a slightly better PF, that takes slightly longer to build and costs slightly more, which totally defeats the design concept of fast, cheap and lots of em.

---

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 09:39 pm: Edit

If every mission 3 of the six Lyran PFs come home and upgrading the Ph-2s to Ph-1s will allow the PFs to fight differently such that 5 of the PF come home:-

Do we save more than the cost of the upgrade each and every mission???


That question ( coupled with certain technical questions and the question of the best application for said Ph-1 ) is the key to whether or not the Lyrans PFs would get upgraded phasers.
That and whether or not the upgrade would create such a shift that every mission two PF hulls were indeed saved ( it could indeed be three or one or none ) but I suspect that a line of prototypes might be built to determine if having a better PF will have cost savings in the long run...and as such the SSDs ought be availible to players.