Archive through August 29, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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X2 plasma:
Archive through August 29, 2004
Quote:The idea was origianlly proposed to balance proposals allowing X2 ships to go speed-32 or higher. while speed-32 had some support, exceeding speed-32 had almost none.
I think you should go take a look at the poll. Speed 33+ had one vote less than the speed 32 ( at 3 & 4 IIRC ).
Quote:MJC's repeated arguments for the Super Sabot always assumed ships breaking the speed-32 barrier. I don't really care to reopen either debate.
You shouldn't make assumption about the basis of MY thinking.
I can see speed 48 Plasma Sabot as a weapon with a GREAT FEAR FACTOR to replace the old "POOP YOUR PANTS" effect that the Romulan Plasma R once generated.
Speed 48 Plasma will to some extent generat the same emotive effect.
The R Torp has always had a deterent value but never had a "Poop your pants" effect on me.
MJC,
I don't go by the polls. They only measure one moment in time.
I go by the flow of dialogue.
Speed-48 plasma was tabled indefinitely.
Speed-32 was tabled without resolution. Twice. The third go 'round is just starting.
Nobody has even half-seriously brought up ships moving faster than 32 in over a year. (For those of you in Rio Linda that means DEAD IDEA)
If you want to go off on another 2-3 month tear about speed-48 plasma and speed-40 ships by all means do so. I will happily ignore your posts.
I'd prefer you do something new. You can come up with interesting ideas. I have had *this* discussion before and don't care to run it into the ground again.
If the newbies want to engage you on the topic, enjoy.
How about speed 62 ships but you only get one Energy Allocation Phase every two turns? 
MJC, I used to think super-speed for X2 was the way to go. After studyin' on it I've come to realize that it causes a lot of chaos with the rules. Now I know we can "write rules" to "fix" that but that creates a cascade of change that "we" don't want to deal with. There seems to be some underground murmurings of "really bad-@$$" stuff for the Xork invasion, so who knows? Since movement is so VITAL to the game mechanics we have to be careful about what we change. Have you codified (written into rules form) any of your movement ideas? Do they mesh with the existing rules or do they stick out like the proverbial "fecal remnant" in the punch bowl? I've found that as I write ideas into rules form and start looking at rules interactions I start getting headaches and nausea. So then I have to look at plugging loopholes and putting out fires and so forth. I find that the simple ideas I started off with turn into months-long writing exercises that turn into drinking excuses. Well reasons anyway...... Or opportunities...... 
I have entertained various ideas of how to have ships move at speed 32 as a way of showing their superior technology and as a way of adding tactical complexity to the game.
There are *other* ways to represent superior maneuverability then speed alone. In fact the 2 are not necesarily related at all.
Movement preference, tac/het limit/costs, etc.
Look if we can come it with something better than a super sabot of speed 48 with 5 hexes of extra glory zone ( and a plasma R tripple Envelope ) then I'm all for it...I just think we should put those ideas in the "legitimate ideas file" and avoid trashing what might be our only avenue.
Add the "5 hexes to glory zone" to my previous statement.
Note for those playing at home, what MJC is really advocating is adding 5 hexes range to all plasma torps. This would be adding five more hexes at full power.
Why he chooses to phrase this in terms of plasma bolting, I cannot fathom.
It is not that this is a bad idea. Far from it.
I'm just tired--VERY tired--of hearing about it.
Listen I'm just curious as to what the reasoning was with the NO DOUBLE MOVEMENT ON THE FIRST IMPULSE thing.
I wasn't actually re-advocating speed 48 ( Although I don't think it needs to be Dis'ed either ).
Also I see GLORY ZONE as the NO DROP-OFF Zone in it's entirity rather than the "to hit 1-3" at R9-10 faculty of Plasma Bolts. I'm sorry if that creates confussion but I just saw 5 extra hexes of GLORY ZONE as being better at expressing the idea quickly than 5 extra hexes of the NO WARHEAD DROP-OFF ZONE.
Quick hint, MJC: this is the "Plasma" thread for X2 technology.
There are threads on this board that are dedicated to having questions about the *existing* rules answered.
Ask there.
Quote:Listen I'm just curious as to what the reasoning was with the NO DOUBLE MOVEMENT ON THE FIRST IMPULSE thing.
Well, look at the charts of other DF heavy weapons. If you allow a plasma to move two hexes on impulse one, that basically makes it a super-short range DF weapon. R2 is the last range a photon or non-UIM disruptor can fire from and still hit on a 1-5. If allowed to move two spaces on the impulse of firing, a plasma player would have a serious advantage against any DF race that wants to achieve that range. Plasma is a seeking weapon, and should be treated as such when fired. It should not be some kind of uber-short range weapon.
If you allow a plasma to move two hexes on impulse one, that basically makes it a super-short range DF weapon.
Well technically it already is as plasma launched at range 0-1 in the right situation can impact next imp, imp 32 launches for instance. Well short of weasels and the like.
DF wpns also autohit at range 0-1 on overloads, barring EW and the like.
Not the point, though, Geoff. Let me try this example.
Say you fire a plasma torp at R2 from your target, who is travelling at speed 30. It is impulse one of the turn. Your torpedo will catch the guy on impulse 17, because on impulse 1 & 17, he won't move. The torpedo will have degraded significantly by that point.
Now, if the target was travelling at speed 31, in the same scenario as above, you won't hit him at all if he was two hexes away, because your torpedo will only catch him on impulse 1 of the next turn...at which time, it will be out of juice.
All that changes if you allow the torpedo to move two impulses when launched. You can catch any ship at R2 immediately, no matter how fast it's going (this presumes, of course, that ships continue to move at less than speed 32). So, it keeps most direct fire type ships from closing in and getting their best reasonable shot, because you can hit them with full plasmas from R2 and they can't stop you, no matter when in the turn they launch.
Quote:Well, look at the charts of other DF heavy weapons. If you allow a plasma to move two hexes on impulse one, that basically makes it a super-short range DF weapon. R2 is the last range a photon or non-UIM disruptor can fire from and still hit on a 1-5. If allowed to move two spaces on the impulse of firing, a plasma player would have a serious advantage against any DF race that wants to achieve that range. Plasma is a seeking weapon, and should be treated as such when fired. It should not be some kind of uber-short range weapon.
Actually it doesn't become an UBER-DF weapon ( as it wasn't at R1 ) as you still get the following.
• Your own Seeking weapon launch ( if using ME TOO FIRING ).
• Your own DF shots ( including Phasers to wear down the Plasma.
• And finaly your own ship movement ( if any is callled for on the impulse of a plasma's movement ).
An uber DF WEAPON would basically be launched in the DF step and resolved in the DF resolution step...that's not many options to respond.
Quote:So, it keeps most direct fire type ships from closing in and getting their best reasonable shot, because you can hit them with full plasmas from R2 and they can't stop you, no matter when in the turn they launch.
Perhaps that would be so if you fired on impulse 16 at that speed 30 ship, but any ship ( other than a centerlining ship ) that can move on the next impulse can move away-ish from the plasma and thus can give it'self an R1 shot at the plasma.
Plasma like all seekers does not move on the impulse of launch because the movement step comes before the launch step in each impulse.
I can see that it's good to get to R2 with impunity ( for the DF ship ) but since it will get run down by visiting R2 by the speed 40 plasma, I don't think the carrot of not getting plastered there and then is worth the stick of getting plastered for sure on your rear shields...thus I don't really see the special no double movement on first impulse as being all that worth-while.
Still maybe players feel that moving 3 hexes in the first 2 impulses ( if the second impulse is 4, 8, 12 etc ) gives players more time to consider their options ( but then R2 is awefully close ).
The more I look at it the more I think it's a fudge to make players comfortable rather than an actual needed thing.
The Sabot torp is capable enough in most instances.
The target ship is moving at 31. (Assuming board and launch position dont invalidate these numbers. [But thats called tactics, not rules.]) Imp one launch.
R2 Impact Imp8
R3 Impact Imp12
etc etc.
Assuming that "Imp. N" is just before a two move impulse simply add one to the effective range to see when impact will occur. Range 8 or 12 is pretty effective for all of the Plasma Torps your likely to see in an X enviroment.
Theres no need for a super sabot IMO. The standard is capable enough. And any talk of moving two hexes after imp of launch is a bad idea.
Quote:There's no need for a super sabot IMO. The standard is capable enough. And any talk of moving two hexes after imp of launch is a bad idea.
No, there's no need for it even if X2 ships went at speed 32 there would be no need for it.
Five extra hexes of Sans-warhead-retardation is needed to offset the fact that the Ph-5 is able to fire effectively at R8 ( and X2 ships move like the wind ) but the speed 48 isn't needed, it just offsets the fact that everybody else gets something great.
Built in UIM Disruptors ( in groups of six on a Klingon Cruiser ) and 20 (24) point Photon warheads are not needed for X2 it's just that we want them because they'll be cool ( and a restoration of racial flavour )...so too with what ever we come up with for X2, we don't need a Sabot better than Speed 40 but with a Sabot at speed 48 it will be a little more cool and a little more terrorfying than using X1 weapons ( particularly when flying against GW ships ).
If someone can come up with something more fun than speed 48 super sabot with five extra hexes of sans-warhead-retardation I'ld like to hear about it.
Sure.
M-torps replaced with R-torps.
S-torps replaced with M.
Simple, has the effect you're looking for and doesn't require a bunch of new charts and torpedo designations.
The big problem with adding endurance to plasmas is differentiating them vs their standard-issue cousins, so you either add a "b" as with the sabot or come up with new torp letters.
Next question?
You could use upsidedown unused chits in stacks of 5 ( with the opponent being free to count ) and then giving the chits per hex to the controler at the start of the plasma being unleashed and then just going from normals once the chits are used up.
I wouldn't want M to go to R and S to go to M as where does R go?
...but in the end it's up to the Steves to make up their own minds.
Exactly.
where does R go?
Z-torp.
Plasma-X
Thank goodness for the board posting rules!
Brodie,
'bout 5 damage difference.
Carrying something over from the "Scary Ships" thread:
. . . how about ballistic movement then decloak on command and go active? Or the cloaked plasma could receive target data from the firing ship or a designating ship (e.g. scout, flagship, etc.)? In both cases the plasma is passively receiving which can be done under cloak. In fact you can stipulate that it HAS to decloak and go active before it can hit its target (which brings in the fade-in period).
What I was writing about there was a cloaking-plasma torpedo. Note I'm not talking about a ship firing while cloaked. I mean the plasma torpedo itself cloaks. I suggested this might qualify as John T's oh $#!% X2 plasma torpedo. Has anyone ever tried playing something like this? I realize something like this can upset the balance, but has anyone witnessed the dynamics?
Something close would be the catfish drones of the Frax. They run cloaked.
Ooh, brutal! You could give non-x-ships a fighting chance by making the plasma have to decloak to make targetting adjustments ala nasty missile weapon seen in Wing Commander (the movie). It sort of runs on a ballistic course towards the last known location of the target, decloaks (say, make it an impulse or two at most), reacquires target, cloaks again while making course adjustment, and so on and so forth...
Not that brutal. The torpedoes with differing phaser damage contained in E2 had a similar effect. If phasers typically fire at range 1, cloaking plasma reduces phaser damage by 30% - 50%. Be much simpler to change the phaser damage division from 2 to 3 or 4 and ignore all cloaking specialty rules.
The primary case where plasma that could run cloaked would cause major problems for the defense is if ships need to be in differing hexes and more distant ships need to concentrate phaser fire on one plasma torpedo. Then the cloaking induced loss of lock-on would have significant impact.
That is provided that protective effects of cloak on plasma resemble the protective effects of cloak on ships. If this is an improved can't see 'em at all cloak, disregard the preceding.