I came up an idea to update the SWAC platform for the Federation by using a Modular Courier from R8.
The modules I used as source information are J, J2, K, R6, and R8.

below is the summary for the proposed MCR/SWAC:
A E2A BPV is 64 which is 61 over the an advanced admin shuttle. So cost of the SWAC capabilities is 61 BPV.

E2A: has 2 scout channels (J9.12), can lend one function at a time (J9.15), has 1 PG-360, ADD 6, and considered to have 2 labs boxes, own weapons do blind sensors, speed of 10, damage of 12.

E3A capability cap cost: 94-7 or 86. Has in addition to E2A; 3 lab boxes, add 12, damage of 18, carry 1 BP.

MCR BPV is 15. Retain Trans, Trac, Btty, Imp, and PRB. Upgrade warp from 6 to 12, PH-1 360 to PG-360. 1 NWO is special sensor (+10) other drone G rack (+6), add either SWAC package (+61 or +86) which would retain ADD. To this would add X drone control. A Fed Thunderbolt PF cost is 20 BPV so add 5 for military upgrade. E2A level cost is around 97 BPV and E3A is around 122 (did not add x tech cost, ? on BPV value). The MCR SWAC would have 3 scout channels but still limited to 1 lending function, and 4 lab box equivalents.

Why? Speed, survivability, and increased combat capability. The cost increase over a SWACs is not that much. It is not intended to be a PF. This ship can keep up with mega fighters and bombers and offers enhanced EW-ECM coverage and drone control. I have created an SSD for a ship that can carry the MCR/SWAC. I put a CX saucer on a BCS (CXCS). In the rear hull I removed the 2 PH-3s and put a repair cabable mech link and a repair box in their places.

The MCR/SWAC would probably be a good escort for heavy bombers.

I hope I have this basically correct. Please consider this proposed ship and let me know what you think.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Joseph, you might want to consider again the heavy bomber aspect.

IIRC bombers are a "deadend" tech line given the limited range, the inability of the warp packs to allow the bombers extended range (as PF's have).

Given the power the MCR/SWAC has, it almost has the ability to keep up with the carrier speed, unlike most shuttles and with your proposed weapons suite of Phaser 1, G-0Rack and ADD's might get pressed into the escort roll...something no SWAC is expected to do. (and survive!)

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Jeff,

In J2 heavy bombers can be fitted with mega packs. See J16.249 mega sytems only increases speed and adds 2 damage points. The speed of a heavy bomber is doubled. FB-111 speed now 28,B-1, and B-2 top speed now 30. Also the MRC/SWAc only has a PH-G, G rack and a 6 or 12 add. This is meant to be about the same weapons load as a SWAC. I do not think this will be used for attack anymore than a SWAC is used as a fighter.

With SC3 being the largest size Federation X carrier (for now) and no PFs I look at the MCR/SWAC as a way to keep the Federation fighter a viable combat attrition unit.

There are other variant of this that could be built. A combat recon/rescue craft, or survey science ship. The ability to carry a variaty of different types of these can greatly expand the capabilities of the CX and CA fleet to conduct various mission. It also increases the power projection of a carrier group.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 08:04 pm: Edit

"With SC3 being the largest size Federation X carrier (for now)"...

FOR EVER.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Joseph, May I suggest that you post a Year in Service date? (possibly year 195?!?)

You might also consider availability...such as limited to Star Bases, (maybe mike Rapers Advanced Fed Carrier with its F14X's?)

You might also want to "nail down" the BPV more...If I recall, fighters BPV for Economic purchase is half what the combat BPV is, and PF's have a corresponding discount (I think)...I don't recall if MCR gets any kind of similar discount, but since it is such a popular and commonly available type, it might have something ...

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Availablity: I have looked at Mike's CVX and also the GVX in CL 26. Neither of these ships have at present a mech link or repair box and I do not know if they would fit in the rear hull. Neither the CVS or scout carriers had SWACs.(J9.53) says only CVAs, SCSs, and Starbases had E3 SWACs. Even though this could be built with either E2 or E3 SWAC capabilities I think the (J9.53) restictions should be used. The ship I see this being deployed on is a CX version of a BCS. Both would be very limited 2 or 3 in the whole fleet.

YIS: Your suggestion of Y195 is fine.
BPV/Economic value: If I am reading the Annex #4 in J2 correctly an E3 is 94/23. The MCR is 15/11. So as a guess limited X tech would be an an additional 3 (control of X drone only, no X Aegis). BPV would be 125/38.

I have proposed that the E3 level version have 3 channels. The limits in (J9.12) would still apply. Further I would suggest these limitations. It can not be used as scatter pack, suicide ship, or a wild SWAC.

Jeff any other suggestions or modifications?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 10:17 am: Edit

I dont have the Captians log article that describes the Modular Courier out right now...do you have it? my question is, does it perform like a PF or is it similar to a ship in strategic performance?

IMO the more we "push" the performance envelope of the SWAC technology, eventually we will get closer to the capabilities of Scouts with Special sensors (and the power to use them!)

your MCR/SWAC is getting close to the point of being a minature scout ship...and given the costs in BPV of X type scouts...the MCR/SWAC might be a Cheap alternative for those players who want some of the abilities of scouts without paying "the full freight"

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 10:37 am: Edit

Jeff,

I do not have that CL either (it think it was 21 or 23), but the MCR is in R8 (R1.54). "They operate under the same rules as interceptors (K3.0) but never have warp packs".

The change would be adding the warp booster packs as part of the military upgrade.

Jeff thanks for your interest in the concept.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:05 am: Edit

Joseph, No prob!

You answered the question though, a MRC/SWAC (needs a handier name I think!) is dependent on a carrier for strategic movement or is limited to a similar performance capability to what Bombers have.

I wonder if a MCR/SWAC could be supported on a mech link as you have proposed...might have to ask SVC if there are some functions of SWACs that require the use of a hanger bay/shuttle box.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit

SVC,

In the auto reject list is "Combat or strike scouts (scouts equipped with non-blinding weapons)"

I am not intending this to be a combat or strike scout but an updated SWAC. Is this idea worth writing up and submitting?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 06:36 pm: Edit

It's not a combat scout.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 07:36 pm: Edit

SVC,

Will these modification take it out of auto reject status?

I looked at K3.0 The interceptor scout with warb booster pasks has 8 warp. This propsed SWAC has 12 with boosters eliminate boosters. Now has 6 warp + 1 impulse + 1 Btty.
Scout channels: Option 1. Only 2 channels cost 1 point energy plus 1 to power SWAC systems. Option 2. 3 channels each would cost 1 point energy plus 1 to power SWAC systems.

Drones: delete drone rack. Can carry 4 spaces of drones on external mounts.

Phasers: Keep PH-G

Shields: No ability to reinforce.

With option 2 it can no longer power everthing and go speed 30. With 3 channels, SWAC system, and PH-G powered (1 pt in reserve) 2 points of energy remain so max speed is 12.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 08:24 pm: Edit

It was never in auto-reject status. It's not a strike scout. It's a very big swac. Doesn't mean it's approved, but it's not DOA.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

SVC,

Thanks for your response

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Joseph, with your last set of changes, you now have (atleast) two competing versions of a MCR/SWAC.

I'd like to suggest that you make the 2nd (weaker version without the warp packs) the early model (or prototype?) maybe a higher number than the E2 or E3 SWACS to denote the impoved type (I balk at using E4...it would seem the Klingons have prempted that one!) and since there was (I think, but since I dont have Cap Log #29 yet, cant verify) that there was a A-6 fighter variant that uses Electronic warfare(again, dont know the particulars) but you might consider a E7 SWAC title....

Following up on the first part again, how about adopting E7A SWAC, as the nomenclature for the MCR/SWAC without warp packs...and the subsequent improved model the E7B with warp packs?

that way if warp packs are not acceptable, the E7A could still "fly".

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Jeff,

I have CL 29. Yes there are 2 versions, EA-6B with 4 EW pods, and EA-6C with 5 EW pods. neither has any weapons or drones, both with speed 10, damage 14, and BPV 11 and 12 respectively.

I like the designations of E7A and E7B. The prototype could be designated XE-5 SWAC. When this proved succefule the 1st prodyction model was the E7A followed by the E7B.

My concern though is balancing the Warp+BTTY+IMP total so it doesn't turn into a "mighty-mouse" ship (unless we put a cape on it).

The other capability that I did not develop was the mech-link tractor the MCR has. It can carry a standard Admin Shuttle. I propose for the E7 series that the mech-link is upgraded to allow carriage of up to a single space fighter (F-18 max). So it carry the RS, RSH, GAS, MRS, and F-18. The link would require 1 unit of power and cost 2 movement points of speed.

Another point all these MCR variants can land on planets by power or gravity. A second version would be: No SWAC system,1 Ph-3, 2 built in EW pods + 2 chaffs packs,1 trac, and 1 mech-link. It could carry 2 BP. Think of it as a combination of a V-22 Osprey and a LCAC. It can do rescue of damage figther, retrieve crews, and conduct commando raids. Could call it RC-7A.

I think of both the E7 series and RC7 as a next step for the Federation third way.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Joseph, separate theRC7 from the proposal. It might be good enough to justify building a commando ship variant around so it could operate 4 or 6 RC7's for ground assault, planet raids etc.

I would recomment leaving the mech link fighter alone for now...the point of the SWACS is that it operates from either a starbase or a large carrier...so either way escorting fighters will be available. the SWAC sould not be operating alone or unsupported...and if it does, it'll almost certainly would be captured or destroyed.

Having an extra SSD box available for some other system would be a boon. use it for something more important than the Mech link...like a APR or additional battery or something.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:32 pm: Edit

SVC, just to clarify your rule:

Are you saying no SC2 X1 carrier ever, or no SC2 X-anything carrier ever? In other words, is there room for a SC2 X2 carrier some time in the future (e.g. for the Xork war)? And by extension any SC2 X2 doo-dad.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Joseph, If you are done with the development process for the MCR/SWAC, I would suggest that you restate you proposal.

Make it a clear copy, (no spelling errors etc) and try to incorporate all of the significant points.

Do not rehash any of the arguments or issues raised earlier but do include example of how it could be used and any important factors that have not been previously addressed.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Yes I am done with development. I will write it up and post in a few days. I also have a SSD done of the proposed E-7A and B.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:59 pm: Edit

If you really feel strongly about your RC-7 design, why not give it its own thread? after all, you have the generic information down, IE the same as the base E-7A and E-7B...It might not fly, but it would not detract from the E-7A proposal.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 02:33 pm: Edit

This is the SSD for the E-7 series advanced SWAC

http://www.vorlonagent.com/sfb/x1/joecarlson/E7%20SWAC_V1.GIF

Rules Outline:

Proposal: E-7 SWAC.

In R8 is a small ship called a modular courier. It is the next thing larger than a heavy shuttle and uses the interceptor rules (K3.0). This looked like the ideal platform to build the next series of SWACs on.

(R2.F3B) E-7 series Advanced Technology SWAC. As the General War progressed PFs and X ships appeared and combat speeds increased the tactical and speed limitations of the E2 and E3 series SWACs became more apparent. The current series of SWACs could not control X drones and did not work well with heavy fighters and bombers.

A advanced technology SWAC was developed. The first in this new series was the E-7A. The equipment from the E-2A was installed into the hull structure of a modular courier modified and strengthened for Federation Fleet service. One year later the upgraded E-7B was put into service. These operated from X Starbases, planets and specially modified carriers.

The E-7 series are not true X ships. The SWAC equipment is modified to control X drones.

Outline of Rule changes.

(XJ9.11) Range is 15 for EW.

(XJ9.12) Scout functions
24. E-7 SWACs can control six X drones or non-X drones per channel. The maximum a SWAC can control is 12 drones.

(XJ9.15) E-7A SWAC can only perform under one of (J9.11) or (J9.14) at a time. The E-7B can perform under two this is an exception to (J4.934).

(XJ9.2) The E-7 series cannot go wild.

(XJ9.31) Restrictions
E7 series SWACs can be carried by X and XP carriers equipped with a repair capable mech-link. X Starbases may be equipped with a E-7 series SWAC.

(XJ9.4) Weapons and Support
(XJ9.41) The E-7 SWACs have a phaser-G with a 360-degree firing arc.

(XJ9.42) Anti-drones: The E-7A has 6 rounds in the ADD system. The E-7B has 12 rounds. ½ of the ADD rounds can be type IX drones. 2 full reloads are in storage aboard the carrier or base.

(XJ9.43) Chaff. The E-7 SWACs carry 2 chaff packs. 6 extra chaff packs are in storage aboard the carrier or base.

(XJ9.44) The SWAC comes with 2 deck crews.

(XJ9.45) The E-7B SWAC has a four-space X drone rack. 3 full reloads are on board the carrier or base. A ready rack with one reload is located with the mech-link. The ready rack also contains one reload for the ADD and chaff.

(XK3.0) E-7 Series Advanced SWAC

(XK3.2) E-7 series SWACs pay 1/4 MC

This is intended as a start please let me know what you think.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

You might want to replace the Ph-G with APR or BTTY. It's not likely the Federation would mount Ph-G on such a unit. The extra power would come in handy too.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 12:39 am: Edit

RBN,

Thanks for your response. The reason I put a Ph-G on this unit is the E2 and E3 SWACs have one. Would replacing the lab with APR be an acceptable alternative?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 07:09 am: Edit

The Federation didn't put X Gatlings on even the GVX. (The only CVX in the game currently.) So I doubt that they would waste such a valuable item on an expendable unit.

As to the E2 and E3 having gatlings. Fighter/shuttle based weapons cannot be mounted on ships. They are designed differently.