I've uploaded the firing arc diagrams to:

http://www.adastragames.com/downloads/Federation_and_Klingon_Arcs.pdf

To make a Fed TC, we need to use the 360 Ph-3 arcs for the 360 Ph-1s.

The Klingon has some interesting firing arc diagram differences over the Fed. The Fed's photon arcs don't quite map to the FA arc (it's a 150 degree spread in this rather than 120), but I went from the theory that a 10 window firing arc was sufficient for heavy weapons.

In order to understand these, you'll need to read:

http://www.adastragames.com/downloads/AVT_Flyer.pdf

What I would like would be a pair of TC SSDs (so as to minimize the things that someone at Origins would need to re-learn) with these firing arc diagrams added in somehow.

If you can label them in the ADB Font, even better.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Ken, I'll see what I can piece togeather for the SSD's I don't yet have to polar AVID display done, but I'll see what I can do

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 09:26 pm: Edit

David, can you extract the polar AVID displays from the PDFs up there?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 09:36 pm: Edit

for a quick-and-dirty version yes, eventually I will have to define them anyway

by the way is it normal for a polar AVID to extend past the equator? I hadn't seen that before and if it happens it will give me significant grief for normal AV fireing arc definitions

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Flyer typos

This is the rigate the model on the cover is examining in the holotank,

Handles thousands of seekers on while still playing fast. - - - something missing there? On the map

In wargames, things should blow up, so - - - Round up?

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 11:41 pm: Edit

David, polar AVID displays won't extend past the equator in AV:T. Putting weapons out on long booms that can be shot off makes it a bad idea.

It would also make the mount they were on incredibly expensive due to the way costs are multiplied for firing arcs.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 12:05 am: Edit

how about in the 3D-SFB world? since the AVID display only allows you to go to ~210 degrees FX and RX weapons are going to be a problem (unless you can limit them to the upper or lower hemisphere, and even then they may be an issue)

also did you intend to have the nose off-center in the disrupter arcs?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 12:08 am: Edit

should I plan to extend the polar arc out one level beyond the equator?

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 01:28 am: Edit

David, the 3-D SFB stuff is an experiment right now. It may add things to the game, it may be too different to have any appeal.

The disruptor arcs are intentional -- they extend down by a fair margin, based on looking at the ship.

For FX/RX, a polar arc will almost always suffice; alternatively, the standard AVID can be extended by one more row of windows on each end (to go to 270 degrees).

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 01:40 am: Edit

what I was refering to on the disrupter arcs is that you have the nose marker offset one block to the side of center and I don't see why you need to

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 07:18 am: Edit

When they are done, I want to see a copy of these SSDs J. ⁴²

By Kerry Drake (Kedrake) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:58 am: Edit

Ken your Disruptor Arcs for the Klingon are interesting (and I do know how to read an AVID), but I fear will put a huge "spin" on how the Klingon is flown...

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:36 am: Edit

Hmmm. I had always pictured, in my mind's eye, that the 6 shields kept their SFB arcs, but met at two points, above and below center mass, with the #1 shield covering the top point (i.e., in cases where an enemy is exactly centered above its opponent and on the same plane) and the #4 the bottom point.

By Ben Moldovan (Shadow1) on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Well, Ken, that's beyond my abilities. Hopefully you get what you need. I look forward to seeing the result. I'll probably be at Origins next year (I hope).

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:19 am: Edit

Kerry, I could have just given the disruptor arcs on the D7 similar arcs as are on the Fed's Photons.

However, they /are/ mounted on separate engines, below the main hull, and we have future development that shows expansion of those arcs (the D5, for instance). Extending the arcs down (and out a bit) seemed reasonable...

Using the basic rule of "Heavy weapons get 9-10 windows of arc" to show their (general) firing arc restrictions from SFB, I tried to find something that fit....however, I can change them to have full overlap rather than the 90 degree overlap they currently have.

David: The one-window-offset on the disruptor arcs is not required -- it's mostly there for aesthetics.

Andy: The "slice of the orange" bit breaks down with the AVID. It is far far simpler to make #3 and #5 shields top and bottom, respectively. (For example, if you're directly over a ship's top, which shield do you hit?)

Yes, you can make special case rules for it, but the simpler and easier solution is the one I've got.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Can we add a shield #7 and #8?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:39 pm: Edit

You could, but where on the SSD do you put it??

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 10:57 pm: Edit

Wherever there's room.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 01:28 am: Edit

Actually,
Mark Means in Tucson developed an exceptional 3D version of SFB. I'm sure he'd share the rules if you asked him.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

Glenn:

Ask him to post them here if you like.

As to making the extra two shields...

Shield arcs are mapped as "Adjacent to the nose/stern/port etc" indicator on the AVID. It's a function of the 30 degree spherical trig the AVID is based on. One side effect of this is that all shield boundary issues are bypassed by the procedure for shooting bearings.

Trying to add 6 shields (one for each hex side) results in all of the shield arcs getting offset in a counter intuitive way when trying to figure out what shield gets hit on the AVID.

By mark means (Mjmeans) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Simple 3-D SFB rules

A more advanced method may be designed later, but I see no good reason at this point to introduce additional top and bottoms shields, and/or trigonometry to determine advanced weapons arcs or to determine which shield is hit when one ship is above the other in a diving attitude and firing down at a ship facing you and also in a diving attitude and possibly hitting the rear shield. I have easy look up charts to eliminate the math, but in my opinion it adds very little additional "realism". Besides, and more to the point, this simple method is PLAYABLE! And it doesn't modify ships in any way or affect BPV's at all.

To visualize how this all works, hold a map vertically (or tape it to a wall) so that map column 01 is at the bottom and horizontal. The ship is in hex 0101, but because you are looking at the map vertically, you are actually looking at the side of the ship. If the ship is in a climbing attitude it procedes from 0101 to 0201 to 0302, etc. Each time the ship moves, it moves up to another column on the map and therefore moves up in altitude; however, from the horizontal persective which is only the 01xx map column, the ship only advances to the next horizontal hex on every other move. So when the ship moves to 0402, it is directly above hex 0202. You can use this same visualization to see how sideslips in altitude down work as well.) It should also be noted that this visualization is in no way to be considered a rule. There is not any actual hex partly offset form the hex below it. We are dealing only with altitudes strait up or down. So hex 010101 is directly below hex 020101. This visualization, however, helps to understand when a fraction of a hex movement at a climbing or diving attitude results in a full horizontal hex.

1. You use a normal hex map and all normal SFB rules. Shield arcs are NOT changed.

2. The maps highest and lowest altitude must be decided upon. Lower ceilings will make it hard for longer turn mode units to avoid leaving the map when turing around in the Z-axis. A practical minimum is 20 hexes high. I recommend a 30 hex height which will create a map area as tall as it is deep.

2.A. Hex numbers are 6 digits long, two digits for the Z altitude, followed by the normal 4 digits for the SFB map hex.

3. Altitude: To track units altitudes you can place dice next to the unit to represent its altitude, or construct a simple "altimeter" sheet with 1/2" squares from 1 to 30 and a 1/2" altitude counter that you can move up or down as your altitude changes.

4. Attitude: Each unit will have an attitude from level flight, climbing (60 deg. climb), or diving (60 deg. dive). When a units turn mode is met, it may turn either 60 degrees left of right, or 60 degrees up or down. Track the units attitude on the "altimeter" sheet or use some other method to represent if a unit is climbing or diving. When a unit is already in a climb attitude, meets its turn mode and decides to turn 60 degrees up the unit on is rotated 180 degrees. The unit is them in a climbing attitude moving 180 degrees from its original direction on the map. The same procedure is used for diving. Three turns in a row in this manner performs a half-loop maneuver and allows the unit to be moving in the opposite direction from when it started, just like turing in the regular 2-D rules.

4.A. Sideslips work just like the normal rules except that you can slip up and down also. In this way, climbing or diving can be done in 30 degree deviations from the direction of flight just like side-slipping on the regular 2-D map.

5. Movement:

5.A. Level Flight: A unit in level flight moves normally and does not change altitude unless it side slips up or down.

5.B. Climbing or Diving: A unit in climbing or diving attitude normally moves horizontally on every other move, but increases or decreases its altitude on every scheduled move.

5.C. Sideslips:

5.C.1. Level Flight Sideslips: When a unit chooses to side slip up or down it moves horizontally on the map only every other side slip. i.e. The first altitude changing side slip moves the altitude up or down, but the counter stays in the same map hex. On the second slide slip up or down, the unit both changes altitude and moves horizontally in the direction of movement.

5.C.2. Climbing or Diving Sideslips: When a unit is climbing and chooses to slip up (or diving and slips down), do not move the unit horitontally. Instead, leave the unit where it is and just increase (or decrease if diving) the altitude. In this way, continuous up side slips when in a climbing or down side slips when in a diving attitude may be used to climb strait up or dive strait down.

5.C.3. Opposite Sideslips: When a unit is climbing and chooses to side slip down, or diving and chooses to side slip up follow this procedure: The unit always moves to the next hex horizontally. It is very important to understand that normal climbing or diving does not count the up or down side slipped moves. Therefore, every other normal climb or dive movewill move horizontally also (according to 5.B.). The end effect of a unit in a climbing attitude always slipping down, would be: 1st move is a normal climb and climbs 1 altitude without moving horizontally; 2nd move slip down and moves horizontally only; 3rd move is a the second normal climb and moves both horizontally and climbs one altitude; 4th move slips down and moves horizontally only. The end effect is that out of every 4 moves, the unit will change altitude by 2 and horizontal position by 3.

6. Distance: To determine the distance between two units count the number of hexes horizontally on the map in the normal SFB way and also determine the vertical difference between the two units altitudes. The true distance in hexes between the units is equal to the larger of the two measurements plus half the smaller of the two. Round all fractions down to the nearest whole number.

7. Shields and weapons arcs: Judge all normal weapons arcs and shield boundaries as if the unit were flying strait and level.

8. Mines and area affects: Extend all these to 3 dimensions, including mines, ESGs, Asteroids, Planets, etc... This does not necessarily make t-bombs unusable to defeat drones, it just makes it a little more complex in that the mine can be on a different altitudes and a ship or drone or whatever could possible fly right over it and still be out of range. As with anything, it just takes a little practice to think in 3-D and then you will be just as good as ever in placing mines.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 05:29 pm: Edit

I had an idea very like this, called it "2 1/2-D" SFB.

If Mark has rules for it, he's a step ahead of me.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Mark, the attack vector rules that ken is starting from are much easier to play then you are thinking (no trig required to play for one thing ) I'd suggest that you take a look at them

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 06:35 pm: Edit

No trig needed, just some right-triangle hypoteneuse figuring.

A chart can be made that pre-figures the values. Give me an hour (maybe less), I'd have an excel sheet version up.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 06:41 pm: Edit

John, you don't even need to calculate it. AV has such a chart that you can downloadand the standard play aids include a pair of right-andle rulers so that you just take a piece of scratch paper go 'hmm the alitiude difference is 10, go up 10, the horizontal distance is 7, fo over 7, mark the distance on a piece of paper and move that paper down to the ruler and read off the distance'