| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 03:36 pm: Edit |
About both of us it would seem.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:10 pm: Edit |
Actually, I think the most unbalancing weapon in the game is the Jindo rail gun.
| By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:50 pm: Edit |
No, I'd agree that it's the webcaster. Railguns can be accounted for by BPV adjustements, casters cannot (even allowing for their greater effectiveness against pure seeking weapon racs) because their effect scales with fleet size. One web caster is a significant influnce in a duel. ten webcasters are "why have you bothered turning up?" in a fleet.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 07:05 pm: Edit |
Lone web casters aren't that difficult to avoid and can actually foster false confidence in the Tholian player (remember you can fire out of web).
Web Casters get more dangerous in numbers and really wild when in the presense of a base with a wedding cake! I could almost argue a case for a BPV penalty for this one situation. But I won't.
The best way to learn to aviod and minimize the Web Caster is to try and employ it. That will tell you all the secerets about how to face it (unless the guy you're playing against is a moron or the SFC AI).
| By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:06 pm: Edit |
The lone WC on the Tholian tourney ship is still rather useful - either would be much weaker if the WC was replaced with another disruptor. Sure, a single web can usually be avoided, but the things you do to avoid it can be exploited.
In a fleet on fleet, the first gets the whole enemy fleet to manoeuvre to avoid it (or forces inefficient deployment, still gets the most important section and possibly breaking up the enemy force into penny packets). Each subsequent once is more effective because the enemy ships have constrained their manoeuvre options by avoiding or running into the first web.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 07:58 am: Edit |
Over in the proposals board there has been a discussion about Tholians using particle cannons. While most seem to agree that GW era Tholians not only cannot use them - as dictated by the rules - they also feel that they shouldn't at that point, because of the situation they are in at the time knowledge of the technology arrives.
But X2 is a different story. PC using X2 Tholians would be pretty cool, because of the historical implications (sort of like the Kzinti resurecting the disruptor cannon) and because it gives them something new and unique to use instead of just being another disruptor race.
Ideas for an X2 PC come in two flavors; some things that seem obvious improvments, and then some more unusual stuff. Combined, it can at first seem to be a bit much. But when you consider the technological leap that has to be made (going from GW to X2 in one move, with no X1 to work from) it isn't so bad.
Obvious Improvments
| By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 08:52 am: Edit |
Reduce PC hold cost to zero, ala Web Caster.
| By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:35 am: Edit |
Or at the very least to a small fraction so a full capacitor only costs 1 point to hold. Currently it can hold 5 points, so reduce holding cost to 1/5th of the power in the capacitor. If we double capacitor capacity, then reduce holding cost to 1/10th of what's in the capacitor.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:11 pm: Edit |
Yeah, hold cost is another obvious improvement. Forgot about that. Heck, that and the other two (overloading both shots and the range improvement) might be enough without anything else. Much depends on the rest of the other X2 abilities the Tholians might get, of course...gotta look at it in the round. Sounds like a pretty good start, though, if you ask me.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:52 pm: Edit |
But remember this is a new weapon as far as the Archeo Tholians are concerned so it's hard to say there could be actual improvements.
Since battery and capacitor improvements are used accross the board then improving the PC cap makes total sense and may be why they choose it over new versions of more traditional weapons. The PC with it ability to fire twice IS a better stand off weapons for webbed fixed possition defense so AN improved Cap may be enough.
I would then say that some improvements might come later around Y210 and then again after the Xork invasion.
But since X2 would be the first introduction of the PC in this galaxy it shouldn't be a major improvement over the original one.
IMHO
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Edit |
Good points. My only concern would be that without some kind of improvment other than the capacitors and range increase that the weapon won't compete with other X2 weapons. If, for example, the X2 photon gets a 25% increase in warhead strength, it will be vastly better than a range 40 PC. It may be that to use PC"s for the X2 Tholians will require some kind of other upgrades. That, or possibly adding more to the ship, sort of like the disruptor races did with X1. A Tholian XCA with six range forty PC's that have improved caps and the chance to overload both shots would be impressive, indeed.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:18 pm: Edit |
Well, the Web Caster has been around so it's ready for improvement along with it's web fist.
Does anyone recall my Sticky Web Fist idea (SWF)?
It does a couple of things but here is the outline.
1)On a hit it creates a patch of web that covers the direction a shield was hit. It lasts for 8 Impulses. It stops fire through that shield (both ways).
2) It slows a ship by it strength level, losing strength completely on the ninth impulse before movement.
3) Sticky Web Fists that strike where one has already been with in the same turn or 16 impulses automatically misses. Being hit by a second SWF on another shield instantly negates the first.
4) SWF cover a 180 degree arc on SC5 and smaller units.
5) SWF require twice the energy of a normal WF (strength is WF/2)
6) Tholians may fire a SWF at other Tholians but would have no effect if their Pass Through ability is turned on.
THIS IS NOT TO TAKE FROM MIKES PROPOSAL. Only to illustrate that the Tholian solution for X2 can (and should IMO) be a comprehensive approach (and Mike did acknowledge this just above). So the PC may not need to fit the same cloths as other weapons do. Heck, just making the WC generally available on X1 and X2 is pretty big.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 01:25 pm: Edit |
Very true...very true. Maybe a mix of ships might work. Right now, we have photon Tholians and disruptor Tholians. Maybe in X2 you could have PC Tholians to provide more direct fire support, and more web oriented Tholians for defense? Might make an interesting dynamic for them to have different versions of the same ship, one with PC's and the other with more web abilities. Have to think about that one.
| By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:16 pm: Edit |
I like the 'obvious' range 40 and twin overload shots. The rest is dubious, although I have to admit the simultaneous OL shot is intriguing, it would likely have to come with some kind of penalty (reduced overall damage for greater one time crunch damage perhaps)or it will be abused.
Increased arcs isn't bad either, just hard to justify.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit |
I wondered about the penalty for the double overload. I was thinking something like not being able to hold it, or perhaps an increased hold charge, or something like that.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:23 pm: Edit |
I agree that by X2 era the Tholians could probably produce particle cannons if they really set their minds to it. But if the only upgrade is an improved capacitor and range 40, I don't see it as being worth while. Particle Cannons just don't do much damage in the 23-30 range block (2 shots per turn, each with a 1/3 chance of hitting for 1 point of damage equals 2/3 point of damage per particle cannon per turn). Extending this out to 40 hexes would mean that even with 6 particle cannons, an X2 Tholian cruiser would do 4 points of torpedo damage per turn from range 22-40. Not that this isn't useful, but without some additional improvement, it doesn't lift the particle cannon to the level of an X1 heavy weapon, let alone an X2 weapon. Allowing three shots per turn or allowing both shots per turn to be overloaded is another matter. Either of those would make the particle cannon very powerful.
But I'm still not sure it would be a good idea from a game perspective to give the Tholians this weapon. Part of me wants to keep it Selt-only.
For one thing, even if they are only conjectural, I assume that eventually ADB will publish X-tech Seltorians. Look at all the other ships (Fed PFs, Orion Dreadnought, Battleships for races other than Klingons) that were never historical but were published anyway. I fully expect that at some point, whether as conjectural units or as part of a "future history" that hasn't been published yet, X-Seltorians will appear. There are enough other directions that X2 Tholians can go.
I haven't actually made up my mind one way or the other about particle cannons for X2 Tholians. But I'm leaning toward leaving it a Selt-only weapon.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:32 pm: Edit |
This is jsut a question for discussion!
What about no change to the weapon (except for range 40 and cap level) but fires through web. It is a beam weapon after all. And that would certainly be a reason to implement them.
However, there is little reason to come out of web then (although there rarely is anyway).
Thoughts?
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:36 pm: Edit |
Hmmmm, if that were true, would anyone be adverse to having two kinds of X-PC's? Say for the Selts, a better version 'cause they have the most expertise with it. Then, a somewhat lesser one for the Tholians. Sort of like the Klingons getting UIM and the Tholians not, if you can dig it.
It's also feasible, perhaps, to give them both an X1 PC. That would be a huge step up for the Tholians, but only a minor one for the Selts.
I agree with Alan, though, that a simple range increase is probably not enough to warrant it. Whatever it ends up being, it has to be advantageous enough for them to prefer it to the X2 disruptor.
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:19 pm: Edit |
The Selt version would have to be SSJ as they are wiped out by X2.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit |
I would kind of like to see X2 Tholians get out of the disruptor, photon, and particle cannon business entirely. Allowing the Tholians high-rate web caster production could have "balance" ramifications that are best avoided. But a "web fist only" version as a heavy weapon would not be unbalancing, IMO. Suppose the X2 Tholians decide to concentrate their X2 weapons R&D on phasers (since they can fire through web) and web technology (one result of this R&D is a mass producable web-fist-only weapon) and abandon disruptors and photons all together (and never adopt particle cannons) at X2 level. (They would still maintain some disruptor and photon capability for their GW-tech ships, fighters and PFs, and X1 ships, all of which are still used during the X2 era. They just don't use these for their X2 ships.)
I've posted a suggestion similar to the following previously, but since the topic of X2 Tholians seems to be opening up again I wanted to repeat it.
XFF - This ship is the X2 version of the Patrol Corvette. It is primarily intended to support fixed defenses and has an exceptionally powerful (for its size) phaser armament but no heavy weapons. It does have X2 web snares, which are primarily used as generators to maintain the outer rings of bases it is supporting, but also have snare capability since the Tholians realize the ship may sometimes have to fight away from bases, even if that isn't its primary mission.
XDD - Has 2 "web fist only" heavy weapons (obviously, we need a better name than that - for now I'm just going to call them web lances because it sounds kind of cool to me) and snares but no true web casters.
XCL - Has one web caster and 2 web lances. Doesn't really need snares because of the web caster but may (like Tholian CCW and CCX) have them anyway. Primary Tholian X2 cruiser.
XCA - Has 2 web casters and 2 web lances. May or may not have snares. Rare but a very powerful ship.
XBC - Has 3 web casters and 2 web lances. A monster - this ship doesn't appear until the Xork invasion when all the Alpha races have to build "super ships" combining X2 technology with combat optimized designs.
The specific characteristics of X2 snares, web casters, and web lances would have to be worked out to balance the tech of other races. But this is a direction I would like to see Tholian X2 tech go in as it maintains a unique racial feel.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit |
Really? I didn't know that. Man, sucks to be them, doesn't it?
| By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:33 pm: Edit |
The Klingons finished them off.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:45 pm: Edit |
Loren;
What's your source for saying they were wiped out by X2? The Original Selt presence in Alpha was wiped out but there is published material saying that the Selts sent out multiple waves of ships. Suppose they got a better foothold somewhere else in the galaxy and that other enclave became permanent and was in communication with the Alpha Sector Seltorians but couldn't get there in time to prevent them from being destroyed.
Hypothetically, suppose this other, permanent, enclave was better equipped than the Alpha Sector Selts (based on a not-yet-published Super-Hive ship) and developed the capability to produce BCHs and Dreadnoughts and also performed their own R&D, based on information relayed to them by the Alpha Sector Selts.
A lot of hypotheses, I know (William of Occam is groaning) but I know of nothing published by ADB that precludes the possibility.
| By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:50 pm: Edit |
That's right, they did mention the other ships, with the only hint of what happened to any of them being that the one that went to the Andromeda galaxy probably didn't survive long. Returning Selts might be fun; maybe the set up in the Sargasso sector, with the Carnivons.
| By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit |
At least until the next wave of Hive ships arrives. These were just the scouts, the main Tribunal force will be along shortly. (The at-war build rate for the Seltorian Galaxy could make the Andromedan Invasion seem like a nothing more than a rowdy guest at a wedding reception.)
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