Archive through September 17, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: Other Proposals: Tholian-Seltorian Home Galaxy + War: Archive through September 17, 2004
By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 08:41 am: Edit

"to counter the 2:1 power ratio that web enjoys"

Huh? I thought the tholians in the alpha quadrant did not get that ratio until about Y175, and back in Y120 or so it was a 1:1 or even a 1:2 ratio. Given that the worse ratio would have been the case in the tholian galaxy, maintianing a full wedding cake would require a significant fleet, and the web breakers would be very effective.

I fully agree however, that web breakers are not the tholian base-busters thay have been cracked up to be - I've played a selt-Tholian battle, and the breakers didn't really help much.

By Chad Carew (Blackhawkckc) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 09:00 am: Edit

the 2:1 ratio the alpha tholians attained represented a reclaiming of lost technology they used to have in the home galaxy, though. They didnt improve the web. They just got back what they lost. It could even be argued that web in the home galaxy was even stronger.

By John C. Barnes (Nitehawke) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:34 am: Edit

Brezgonne:

What I was getting at is that the Seltorians have been the 'most favored' subject race for possibly a very long time. IF (just if, mind you) they had intended to revolt all along, they could have been telling the Tholians "gee we lost 'x' more ships this year against the pirates {or whatever threat is handy}. We need those replaced, if we are to continue to keep the peace for you."

After possibly generations of this, the Selts could well have THOUSANDS of ships mothballed waiting for their eventual revolt. Once they have the WB, they would (as Tony mentioned) refit their fleet of 'destroyed' ships with that technology before they even BEGAN their revolt.

It's possible that they managed their build up via clandestine means long enough before they actually revolted that they COULD break the Tholian Will in a relatively short period of time.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:47 am: Edit

TonyB: Itty bitty sphere sized point to make for your situation.

Each of the regional capitals is, I think, a dyson's sphere.

David: It doesn't require a big fleet to maintain the web. It can be done with a single cruiser or larger vs the Bugs since they lack much in the way of deteriant to keep the Tholians from powering the web.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Quote:

...they could have been telling the Tholians "gee we lost 'x' more ships this year against the pirates {or whatever threat is handy

. We need those replaced, if we are to continue to keep the peace for you."}

Interesting thought...could be.

There are Starbases in some sectors. Some sectors would be stronger than others probably relative to the amount of resources in that sector.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Quote:

It can be done with a single cruiser or larger vs the Bugs since they lack much in the way of deteriant to keep the Tholians from powering the web.



That depends entirely on how the Bugs fly. If they pile into the web in a single stack, then yes, the Tholians can run a cruiser out to power the web. If they come in at several points with some ships, and keep others out of the web, then the Tholians will have to have some good shooting to blast out a blind spot and recharge the web before either the web goes down from time and WBs, or another ship dives in to cover the blind spot. If the Bugs just orbit the web and plan on diving in with a big tractor when the Tholian ship comes out to power the outer layer, then it can get even uglier, especially if the Tholians are relying on a single ship.

Yes, if the Selts allow the game to come down to a question of power vs. WBs while the P4s pound on them, then the Tholians are in a good position. But then, the Selts would be playing the Tholians game, and that's never a good plan.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:39 pm: Edit

I do agree that it depends strongly on tactics.

With just the Bugs though I don't nesscairly think they can cover enough of the web to stop a tholian ship from popping out of the inner layer for a bit, powering the web, and retreating again. Lacking seeking weapons or strong crunch power (something the Neos have if they use the web fist) the onyl real deteriant they have would be massed waves of shuttles in as many of the outer web hexes as possable.

This is after they breach the defending minefield (which is listed as being used in the THG) somehow.

Now, assuming that they have a full 11 ship fleet, with a DN, BCH, and the rest half cruisers and half DD/FFs, what sort of distubution patter for the ships are they looking at in order to be able to dive into the web to fire on a ship powering the web?

Now, assuming (unrealisticly due to Ph4 damage) they are just barely skirting the outer layer of web (range 1 to the web) and have their ships spread out evenly thats what... a ship every 3 hexes or so?

The logical thing to do would be to try and have an even spread between the small and large ships so that the Tholian player can't just slip over while a frigate is nearby, blast the frigate from range 2, power the web, and slip back.

the problem I see is that there isn't that much to prevent the Tholian ship from doing exactly this. Even if you have a cruiser near the frigate or destroyer that gets shot and or dives into the web, if you make the cruiser follow suit, with a 3 hex seperation, the LOS to the tholian will be blocked.

Even worse is if the Tholian base has either not fired or held back weapons in reserve. It now has the option to damage to destroy either ship that is stuck in the web.

Can anyone think of a way the bugs can prevent this from happening without some sort of deterant?

One I can think of is they had an ally with short range but high crunch power to help them. A race like that would be absolutely destroyed in open space by the Neo-Tholian fleet given the Neo's long range weapons but would be highly useful to the bugs during base assaults to prevent the Tholians from powering up the web.

Sorta like fusion hydrans without fighters or something simular.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Quote:

Each of the regional capitals is, I think, a dyson's sphere.


True - I thought I'd said that. I'm not sure how that makes the scenario a problem.

1) 100s of Selts attack a remote Dyson Sphere regional capital and destroy it. This is the first attack - the Tholians just weren't ready and didn't have any defenses.

2) 100s of Selts go to attack another Dyson Sphere - the Tholians send their Mother Of All Fleets to defend it and beat up on the Selts.

3) The Ghost Fleet of Selts + Rebels attacks the now un/under - defended capital, destroying it.

4) If/When regional capital Dyson Spheres start running away, they become much more vulnerable (not sure about a specific SFB rule stating this, but it is in the F&E rules).

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit

I haven't played lots of Selt vs. Tholian matches, but if the goal is to take out the web tending ships, how you get to them is going to depend on the shape of the web, won't it? I'd think you'd have more luck by concentrating your forces against one section of the web then spreading out. Anyway they do it is going to be tough, though; getting at a Tholian base that has all its webs in place with ships to tend them is a bear for anyone.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:51 pm: Edit

In the Seltorian scenarios, their fleets seem to follow a pattern of 2xDN, 2xBCH, etc. With two of each, the fleet seems to swap out two SC4 hulls for SC2 hulls compared to an Alpha Quadrant fleet. Does this structure have any significant WB effects?

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Quote:

1) 100s of Selts attack a remote Dyson Sphere regional capital and destroy it. This is the first attack - the Tholians just weren't ready and didn't have any defenses.



The reason I think that could be a problem is that if the spheres are, as Loren said, paradise to the Tholians, then there wouldn't BE a totally undefended sphere.

Basicly think of each sphere as a full capital hex in the normal F&E game. As I understood it, each controls a given area and has it's own shipyards, repair facilities and defenses. Now we know that the Holdfast sphere arrived with, I think, 16-20 PDUs already present (even if it was effectivly alot more by early years standards).

If that is about normal for the provincial capitals, along with a starbase, web, and at least some defending ships; then attacking one is NOT easy.

Of note though is I belive the first serious attack was historicly supposed to be agasint a starbase and not a sphere. When compared to attacking a sphere, this is a vastly easier target to destroy and I think somewhat more likely. It would also still get the Tholians attention since I imagine starbases aren't any less important in the THG than they are in Alpha F&E.

Hey.... that gives me an idea.... Has anyone taken a look at how the Vudar opperate in F&E? In terms of taking space from the Klingons and Hydrans I mean.

As I remember it, the Vudar move into undefended areas, setup their cloud thingies, and take over.

What if the bugs do something simular? Move into undefended systems and sectors, drop vast numbers of worker/warrior bugs there, and make it very diffcult to get rid of them shor to scorching the planet. Sort of like trying to get termites out of your house when they are entering from several places at once.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Mike; If you concentrate your forces against one section (I presume you mean one leg of a globular web) then the Tholian simply runs his ships over to the other side or at an angle where the 2nd layer of web still blocks LOS, and pumps up the web to keep you trapped. Remember that this is globular web, so you can't isolate a 60-degree arc of web for degradation with WBs. All of the web in a particular layer is connected.

That said, you're last statement is important. Tackling webs is difficult for anyone, and will be so for Selts also if they have to hold their WBs back to pump up an alpha strike on a reinforcing ship.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Very true. I guess I'm hoping that by concentrating on his tender ships quickly enough, you can force his ships to choose between trying to maintain the web or fight you. Tough call, no matter what. I personally would prefer to be as aggressive as possible before he phasers me to death with the base and his ships.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Quote:

In the Seltorian scenarios, their fleets seem to follow a pattern of 2xDN, 2xBCH, etc. With two of each, the fleet seems to swap out two SC4 hulls for SC2 hulls compared to an Alpha Quadrant fleet. Does this structure have any significant WB effects?



Not really. It certainly helps but the bugs need substantially more WBs in a fleet before they can take down web quickly.

You do bring up a point I forgot about though. Both sides seem to use differnt delpoyment limits than the Galactics do.

I've seen a scenerio or two (maybe more; I mostly skip to the outcome hehe) where the Neo's were using multiple SC2 ships and, as Steve pointed out, the Bugs do something akin to it as well.

Exactly what ship DO the Tholians have filling the role that galactic DNs play? It does seem that, on the surface at least, that the NBB is playing the same role as the Galactic DNs and that the NDN is relegated more to the BCH role.

The same sorta applies to the bugs though I vaguely remember at least one of the sceniro's pointing out they were using command points.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Daniel,

You are assuming, from F+E, that a Dyson Sphere shall have 20PDU+SB defending it.

We don't know that to be true in the THG (and I doubt it). Because, before the Selt's rebellion, nothing could attack a Dyson Sphere because of the web. The Neo fleet would trash it before getting through the web, and the SB would come into arc after being in the blind spot while the attacker slogged through the web.

Now lets say that ALL Dyson sphere's in the THG have 0 PGB's at the start of the Rebellion, and can install only 4-8 total (the Archeo's modified their Dyson sphere upon arrival to the Alpha Occtant to have 20 PDUs lets say).

Now if you consider a Dyson Sphere with only a SB+ 4-6 PGBs on something 3-5 (?) hexes around and the SB at a radius 1-2 orbit, it is not that deadly to assault, as you only attack the Dyson sphere in the blind spot of the SB, and that is a cakewalk (compared to fighting a SB behind web) since the SB is out of the equation.

Also, consider the additional cost of reinforcing a web that is surrounding something even 3 hexes around. Those additional hexes shall eventually matter when reinforcing the outer layers.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

A point about fleet organization: In F&E players can and sometimes do concentrate multiple SC2 ships into one fleet. The S8.0 restriction on one SC2 ship plus one BCH in a single fleet is a restriction on BPV based scenarios to prevent players from building super-munchkin fleets. It might be thought of as "standard doctrine". But unlike the restriction on too many Andro DisDev ships operating together, it is not a technological limit. Under very unusual conditions (like, oh, I don't know, an assault on a very heavily defended but very important enemy position) fleets can and do violate their "standard doctrine". And as I said, this is allowed and does occasionally happen in F&E.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Quote:

Very true. I guess I'm hoping that by concentrating on his tender ships quickly enough, you can force his ships to choose between trying to maintain the web or fight you. Tough call, no matter what. I personally would prefer to be as aggressive as possible before he phasers me to death with the base and his ships.



The problem though is that your dealing with Neo ships that can all both power the web, and potentially crush and small ship that dives into the web to attack it.

If the defending ships maintain a fair speed, hold their weapons, and put excess power into the web over a number of impulses, life it very difficult for the Seltorians.

If the bugs all stay on one side of the web I can virtually guarantee that the Tholian's defending ships will be on the opposite side of the web, dumping huge amounts of power into the web.

This is actually aggrovated much more if the Tholian is using a buzzsaw styal web since then the defending ships don't even have to leave the same hex as the base. The base itself can power up all 3 strands of web at will.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

I thought I remembered mines being on the list of things that didn't exist in the Tholian Home Galaxy. Mines, of course, being the primary reason not to just charge down one arm of a buzz-saw style web.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Scott: I'm basing the number of PDUs on the sphere on what I remember it arriving with in this galaxy.

You are correct though. It is an assumption and I could be wrong. But if the spheres are paradise as Loren suggested then I can easily see them being some of the few places in the Will that ARE heavyly defended and fortified no matter what the situation is. The buggers are expensive after all.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Quote:

I thought I remembered mines being on the list of things that didn't exist in the Tholian Home Galaxy. Mines, of course, being the primary reason not to just charge down one arm of a buzz-saw style web.



Mines (all forms) exist. Transporter bombs do not.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Alan: True. Though in our F&E games it was usually rather rare for a given fleet to remotely resemble a S8.0 fleet.

Heck, one time when I was playing Romulans, nearly the entire battle force consisted of dreadnoughts LOL....

The question is, then, is what we see in the scenerios representitve of both races normal fleet deployment patterns or are these just special cases?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Daniel;

I note that the published scenario for a Seltorian assault on a Tholian starbase already includes two DNs and two BCHs in the Selt forces. That being the case, I wouldn't be surprised if the Selts were to mass multiple DNs for the rare but very important attacks on Dyson Spheres.

I would also remark that we have no way of knowing whether the Sphere that arrives in our galaxy is typical of a Tholian Home Galaxy "provincial capital". It is possible that it was capital of an unusually rich and important province and most Tholian provincial capitals were smaller and less well equipped.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Quote:

The problem though is that your dealing with Neo ships that can all both power the web, and potentially crush and small ship that dives into the web to attack it.

If the defending ships maintain a fair speed, hold their weapons, and put excess power into the web over a number of impulses, life it very difficult for the Seltorians.



Very true, unfortunately. In games I have played against Tholians with a base and an established web, though, as a general rule the longer the game goes on, the more likely it is that the Tholian will win. How best to counter this is a tough call, though, that's for sure. I do think that getting in the web as fast as you can is a good idea; now, knowing where and how to do this? Ugh, that's harder. I'd have to actually see the board and really know the specifics before I could even hazard a guess.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Mike: The Paradox in "getting into the web as fast as you can" is that in order to do that you have to move ships into the web at some point to attack the powering ships.

But when you do that there is a VERY good chance that the ship(s) you send in will be crippled or destroyed either before they can fire or after they fire on a powering unit.

And every ship you lose in this way makes it that much harder to bring down the web enough for the other ships to get through.

If you think about it the Klingons, as an example, at least have the mauler, SFGs and drones (which have an easier time getting through a web than ships do) to act as a deteriant.

All the Seltorians have are phasers and particle cannons. Both of which likely won't survive long enough to fire a second time.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Doesn't the web breaker help them get through a web more quickly, though?

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