Tos: I did mention before that X-tech doesn't necessarily mean bigger... Being able to pack an original mauler weapon into a destroyer shouldn't be impossible now, using mauler capacitors instead of adding a whack-load of batteries. X-destroyers should be tougher than their GW counterparts, better shielding, better power, adding a mauler to something like this would be cool...

But if it's gotta be a Falcon, then I poke Mike Raper to do the fine SSD work he always does. :P

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

LOL, I got poked!!!

Okay, here we go:

R4.?? Romulan Falcon-X Advanced Mauler Cruiser

A few notes:

• Built on a new construction hull based on the designs for the Falcon. This would let the builders use an existing design, but update it to take advantage of new technology, miniaturization, etc.
• It has a minimal phaser suite for seeking weapon defense, attrition unit defense, or as a way to have some sort of protection if the capacitors are drained.
• Carries a pair of Plasma-L's. This is to round it its weapons array. They are not enough to be a serious threat, but can help deter someone from getting to close. Loaded as F's, they wouldn't even have a hold cost.
• More control systems (bridge, aux, and a pair of lab boxes). An X-ship needs more control than a standard Falcon can provide. One good hit to the old one, and the bridge was out and it was a dead duck.
• Capacitors hold 2 points of power. This power can be only be used for the mauler cannon, and is the ONLY way to get power to it. The cannon is not connected to any other power source. Further, the mauler can draw any combination of power from its capacitors it chooses...it is no longer required to draw power in banks.
• Warp power. It only has 30. As what is still essentially an auxilliary ship, it just doesn't rate the big X-warp 20 point engines. It can maintain strategic X-speeds, but is a bit slower in battle.
• Batteries. Has a quartet of X-batteries for reserve power. Not as much as most cruisers, but enough to get by.

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Cool! Something to try out over the weekend. I'll do a patrol encounter with it, and maybe a base assault or something. Thank ya!

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 07:58 pm: Edit

I think it should have a limit of 1 point draw from each cap box at one time. Of course that could be one impulse after another.

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Nah, let it give it the gusto in one shot. :P Being able to use all, most or some of the power in the capacitors should be a good arguement against those who think the X-maulers should have 48 battery capacity *and* be able to fire all, most or some of the battery's power.

Besides, that's what shock is supposed to do, eh? Provides an upper limit of what the mauler can do in one shot... if the captain thinks the risk is worth it though, fire away!

But, I'll take your idea into consideration. I plan on trying it out with 2 point caps and 3 point caps, so I can certainly try the 1 power per box limit to see what it's like.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Well playtesting should prove if the idea of mauler caps works or not...I have a feeling that it'll become like the old overloaded phaser rules:- the tactics in the wild broke the game.


Since you can't weasel off the 160 points of damage the mauler produces; getting the mauler to R1 at all costs becomes the only tactic on the grounds that the power can't be used for anything else.

If people are okay with making a very two dimensional ship into a one dimensional ship, I'll accept being out voted on this...but I really think it'll probably be better to retain the ability to use the power in the mauler for something other than damage generation.

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:16 pm: Edit

If you'd look at the design, it does have 12 points of battery to play with, which will do just fine for EW shifting, shield reinforcing, and so forth. You also forget that the ship cloaks, and carries some plasma. It's not going to be the 1D ship you presume. Think about it, no more wondering how much damage you should stop, just so that you would have enough battery to do some damage with the mauler. When the caps are full, you can fly at medium battle speeds, do some specific or general reinforcement, and still have battery/reserve power for more shield reinforcement or EW shifts.

And, in any time I've seen a mauler used, it was at close range. Getting close has always been the goal with the mauler. Any other range is useless for the ship, and you should know it by now.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:28 pm: Edit

I'd rather not see cruisers blow up with one shot. Two, OK but in one impulse a ship can turn or move and put up a new shield. Still the ship can output the same damage per turn but 160 in one shot seems munchkin to me (sorry Mike).

It has 40 caps. That right there is big mauler output and it can do this twice without charging. That is huge.

Further, I'd rather not see it doing 80 out to the 1:1 range in one shot. That's 30 to 40 internals on a XCC. That will also aways down almost any bases shield in one shot that won't miss.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:34 pm: Edit

I'll correct one misaprehension. Under E1.823 Maulers can miss. Not easily it takes an EW modifier to push a 2d6 roll to 13+ but it can be done. Especially with Bases Self generating abilities.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:47 pm: Edit

I agree it has a certain munchkiny feel, but there are a few things that make it somewhat less than truly munchkin.

For one, it's low on warp for an X-ship. It'll have a tough time keeping up speed and EW, which it needs to get to point blank range to really use that mauler.

It has very limited hull. That means that on the DAC, it will VERY quickly start loosing capacitors; the hits on rolls of 5, 7, and 9 will be tearing up power in a hurry.

It has no real weapons to speak of for an X-ship. It can defend itself reasonably well vs. seeking weapons, and add a little insult to injury if it has to, but in the end, it's a one shot ship; just like other maulers.

It has poor maneuverabiliy for a ship that has a mauler firing arc. A D turn mode combined with a mauler arc is terrible.

All in all, I think it'll be okay. There are other ships that can toss out the damage, too, and are nowhere nearly so hampered. The X-mauler is an odd duck; it doesn't really belong anywhere, but is just too cool to pass up. I want it to have some serious ass kicking potential without it being just some gargantuan bank of reserve power. If all else fails, delete some capacitor boxes...that's easily accomplished.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Kenneth, please note that I said "Won't" as opposed to "Can't".

I'll concede that "Won't" assumes a capable player.

Mike, it limitations really only apply to multiple turns of activity. I would play this ship easy going until suddenly I'd jump someone. It can easilly move 31 and have a bit for reinforcement. No other unit is faster than that so it can clobber some one very easilly albeit once every three turns. In a duel it would be slow because it would be getting pounded every turn but in a fleet it can remove it's self from the main battle and recharge. The rest of the squadron/fleet need only hold the enemy down (if holding is your intent it is easy to do).

I note that adding phasers and two Type-L torps (bolted lets say for now) the total of the damage could easilly be 200 points. What else (besides a Starbase) can do this to one shield in one shot?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Suppose we gave maulers smaller amount of capacitors and more batteries, say 10-15 batteries and 20 (2-point) capacitors.

This achieves the 2-shot effect and gives the mauler back some of its traditional (massive reserve power) uses.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:24 am: Edit

J.T.:


Maybe mixing the proportions to acheive a flexible yet non uber-reserve vessel is the answer.

I unfortunately have no idea when the mix would be right but I think the double shot concept might well be worth looking into.
42 points in BTTYs and 42 points in Caps would seem like a good starting point.
14 X BTTYs and 21 Mauler Caps.

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Edit

There have been a few discussions of X1 carriers and escorts over the past few months. So here is a try at another version. In J2 there was a F-111 CVH and a 24 F-18 CVD. I borrowed ideas from both.

The CVAX is based on a CX. It carries 6 F-111s in the saucer and 12 F-18s in the rear hull. In another post I have a proposal up for a new type of SWAC, a E-7. This ship carries that type of SWAC. Please consider this a starting point.

The fighters are new also. I added a mega system to each. Also the EW pod is an upgrade version that has the control equipment for X drones. he F-18 traded the 2 extra damage boxes for the EWX pod and 2 Ph-3s 360. There is no X tech on either fighter.

http://www.vorlonagent.com/sfb/x1/joecarlson/F_CVAX__v1.GIF

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 05:56 pm: Edit

So.. what Tholian ships are you guys looking at again?

The NCHX I though was going in. The NCMX/NMCX (I forget what the letters ended up being; The medium cruiser I made) seems like another obvious ship if you discount that the NCLs are listed as destroyed by X1 era.

A new construction DDX with a web caster is another posibilly. I don't have access to the POL though, so maybe using the older ANDD from one of the earlier captains logs?

I admit it's unlikely the Tholians would use a webcaster on a smaller ship but filling out the Tholian fleet would be nice.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 07:50 pm: Edit

DKT,

IMO older ships can't be converted to 2X tech since they would be to old/difficult to convert. Conversion to 1X is hard enough, but 2X would be even harder.

So all of the Tholian 2X ships would probably be Archeo in type. Since there are no facilities to cast hull plates for Neo hull types.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 08:05 pm: Edit

By the time the Tholians reach X2, they might be able to build new forges.

By definition that's got to happen sooner or later.

You can't increase in technology forever and still be on the "refugee" plan. You eventually re-discover out how to do the things you used to do.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Daniel,

I'm assuming you are talking about more X1 Tholian ships (that's what Module X1R will be...more X1 ships, not X2). In that case, any of those you list would work; really, just about anything they have that isn't SC2 is up for grabs.

John,

Yeah, I agree. Sooner or later, if we keep adding new Tholian stuff, they have to give up the whole refugee angle. Can't keep building new and improved bases and ships and still maintain a refugee "feel".

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 08:24 pm: Edit

I've got enough on my plate regarding Tholians. So I won't really argue the point.

I simply prefer the Archeo type hull for the GP Tholians. But if you canvince SVC more power to you. My take is that the Tholians have spent a century (+) making the PC hull their preferred design. So they understand the Hull stresses and limitations much more than they do Neo type hulls.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Ken: Isn't this the X1 R-Module? What are you talking about X2 for? Did I miss something?

Mike: Yes I was talking about X1. Thats the name of the thread last I knew and I'm bloody confused as to why you and the others thought I was talking about X2.

Though I'm not really sure why X2 is in the X1 thread, I agree that by the point of X2 the Tholian can probably build entierly new hulls if they want to.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:05 pm: Edit

DKT: Just to make sure you know:

X1 ships have the X last in there nomenclature.
X2 ship have the X come first.

That way we all know where each other are talking about.

Mike and John: As long as Tholians progress ina logical manner why should they have to maintain a refugee feel?
That doesn't mean I think they shoudl become expansive. But what ever defends the Holdfast best is what they should do, IMO. That "feels" better to me anyway. After a century+ they should be pretty well settled in. After Operation Nutcracker most everything they have is going to be brand new by Y205 (kinda like modern day Japan after WWII).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Loren,

Kind of my point. The "refugee feel" is underpinned by their inability to produce hulls save through an automated forge (probably several) they can't repair or duplicate.

Sooner or later, they'll figure this stuff out or figure some other way to do the same thing. Doesn't mean they have to go on the offensive. they can still be demi-paranoid isolationists.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Until they can start building new spheres you bet they will remain isolationists. They have nowhere else to go and unlike a planet the sphere CAN actually be destroyed. A planet can be terraformed. You can go to a new planet while fixing up your devestated one.

If the Tholians lose their sphere there is only isolated pockets of hell. They are dead for all time (as far as they know). They might be able to survive on a Starbase as a race but that is far easier to destroy than a Sphere and far worse to live in. Losing the Sphere is every Tholians nightmare. It would be their ultimate fall from heaven so to speak.

I would not think that they would need to build different types of hulls such as Neo types. The ones they've managed to create are pretty darned functional. Their best bet would be to build a second forge. If they could turn out basic D hulls as fast as cruisers they'd be in excelent shape (the basic D hull being the finest BCH there is, IMO).

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Imagine a single wedge hull with a MC of 1.

Imagine the stark screaming terror of the Klingons upon seeing it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:06 pm: Edit

Well, that would scare everyone but might invite another assault.

In the backstory (unfinnished and unpublished) I'm working on for the Tholian BB story from CL28/SSJ2 one of the major arguements against building or even pretending to have built a BB was that this might present a threat to the Klingons that they could not ignore. The logic being that if they can build such units they could go on the offensive. The plan was to present a ship that had limited capabilities and not long range to help play down this threat. "This is what will be waiting for you if you come to Tholia" was the intention. The idea was to convince the Klingons that it will be far too expensive to conquer the Tholians so don't even try.

This same thinking might be raised again when proposals for a larger forge are presented. It's a balance to produce ships that can defend well but not pose a serious threat to their touchy neighbors. A single wedge MC1 hull could only lead to their enemies imagining MC2 double hulls and, god forbid, and MC3 tri-hull. This possability would be unacceptable by the Klingons who would likely attack again but this time without being at war with anyone else and so able to bring to bear their full might against them. Also, they would do it with X-ships.

If the Klingons did that then the only option for the Tholians would be to beg for help from the Feds and that is a very distastful option for the Tholians. While the Feds don't really hate the Tholians they haven't recieved much respect from them either and so don't really have much love for them. Willingness to assist might come slow and too late. The Feds don't want another war but the Tholians are useful stratigically.

All in all a bad situation for the Tholians.