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Mines (all forms) exist. Transporter bombs do not.

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By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Well, there is ONE little item everyone is missing, there is no outer layer of web around a dyson sphere!

Look at the map, a sphere is larger than one hex, the one in our galaxy is shown as 3 hexes across, this means the inner web is at least radius 2, the middle is at least radius 4, the outer then has to be radius 6 which is larger (36 hexes) than web can be (30 hexes - G10.232), unless the Steves give the Neos an exception due to tech differences between Archaeo and Neo.

Course, this means that the heavy base phasers are goung to hurt more as there are only two layers, not three....

Home Galaxy use of mines is under (R7.60B) of Module C3...

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:01 am: Edit

Mike, Wb through web, no it does not help them get through it only lets them drain web strength points faster.

ADM

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:16 am: Edit

Since the way you get through web is to drain it's strength points I would say that the WB does indead help get through faster.

Assuming the web is going to drop at all draining it's strength WILL make it drop faster.

If you crash the Web on all sides (a standard anti web tactic) then any ship in web that is NOT firing on Tholian ships plus all ships reserved and not yet in the web are moronic if they do not fire on the web every turn. If the Tholians can't get out to substantially reinforce the Web it will drop to less than 26 strength much faster than against anyone else. (At 25 I can force my way through then mid-turn decel to a safe speed and crash the next layer.)

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:48 am: Edit

Frank: See page 15 of module C3 towards the bottom of the left column for definition of Home Galaxt Tholians having mines but no transporter-bombs.

The number of Web Breakers in SH11.00 is sufficient to take down a 12 hex web. (That is 24 Web Breakers averaging 15 point reductions in web each.) Just a few points short of what is needed to take down a maximum size web set up at WS-1; 360 versus the starting strength of 450.

Therefore, if the first few base assaults take place before the Tholians have adapted to laying very strong multi-layer webs as a matter of course, the Tholians will lose those bases. Coupled with losses from surpised Tholian ships operating in mixed squadrons with Seltorian vessels should give the Seltorians a substantial headstart on removing the Tholian power structure.

I have tried using a variation on standard Klingon high speed circular runs around the web with ships crashing in to the web when a Tholian comes out to recharge it. Countering the 360 points of web degradation requires various Tholian ships to spend 45 impulses (total) next to the web, plenty of time to swarm a Tholian and kill it. Often, massed web breakers provide enough reduction in web strength to allow the Seltorians to cross the web layers. Reach the innermost layer; knock it completely down and kill the target that used to be protected.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:59 am: Edit

I would add that the Seltorian could help their cause by modifying some ships to carry extra Web Breakers at the cost of other weapons just to bring down web faster. A DD could be modified with Web Breakers replacing 2 phaser-1s and both Particle Cannons. Four of this DD web buster instead of the four smallest ships in (SH11) means that up to a 18 hex web can be knocked down in a single impulse. Radius 3 web would be killable in a single impulse.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:22 am: Edit

Stewart W Frazier:

The sphere has no outer atmosphere to interphere with the web and, if I recall correctly, web can be laid right up agasint one. Not that is any better. but yes, barring some sort of exception there are only two layers of web around a dyson's sphere. Not really a very useful change but it is slightly easier I suppose. The problem being here that if the web is flush agastin the sphere than the sphere can more or less keep the web at max strengh indefinatly. And yes, the ph4s are going to be considerably more painful to the attacker without the further damage reduction.

Mike/Doug:

Part of it is that the total web strengh of a 30 hex, 35 strengh web, is a minimum of 1050 points. I do not recall off the top of my head a restriction that limits the amount of power you can place in a given web in terms of total. Just that the max effective strengh, regardless of true web points, is 35.

If my memory is correct on that, it allows the Tholian player to build up one heck of a web point reserve prior to the Seltorian ships actually moving into postion. an example would be all the tholian ships dumping maximum available power into the web while the Seltorians are still 30+ hexes away.

As an example, lets say there is a NCA, NCL, 2xNFF and 2xPCs guarding a tholian base. Not exactly a large force and I think it's close to what one of the basic BATS assault missions lists. For purposes of this example we'll say the Tholians know the bugs are coming and the outer web has exactly 1050 web points in it.

I'll assume all are moving around speed 15 while the Seltorians close range with the base.

The NCA, after other power costs can afford to dump into the web either 8 or 18 power depending on if it bothers with particle cannons (personally I'd let the PCs discharge and vamp up the web while I have the chance). I'll go with 18 power over 5 impulses. This is 36 power points not counting power already in the web casters at higher weapons statuses

The NCL, be more of a pursuit ship, can afford to supply 19 power of 5 impulses. The two NFFs can prodvide 15 power between them and the two PCs 7.

This comes out to the Tholians adding about 114 strengh points per turn it takes the Seltorians to get close to the web.

This pretty much means that the Seltorians MUST charge the base at max speed to prevent the Tholians from pumping the web up to totally unassailable levels.

Numericly the web breaker does look like it should work. The problem is in the actual application. It's most effective at range 1 from the web. The problem with getting that close is that your will almost certainly be blasted to bits by the combined phaser fire from the defending tholians and the base.

Even the small defending fleet I listed above has 28 ph1s. More than enough to gut nearly any single large Seltorian and destroy several smaller ones.

Not to mention the obvious abiltiy of the Tholians to further fortify a postion by simply sticking ground based Ph4s on inner asteroid anchors. While logical it's also just downright mean.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:27 am: Edit

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I would add that the Seltorian could help their cause by modifying some ships to carry extra Web Breakers at the cost of other weapons just to bring down web faster. A DD could be modified with Web Breakers replacing 2 phaser-1s and both Particle Cannons. Four of this DD web buster instead of the four smallest ships in (SH11) means that up to a 18 hex web can be knocked down in a single impulse. Radius 3 web would be killable in a single impulse.

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By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 03:54 am: Edit

Not sure the Seltorians have to charge full tilt. If the web is at full (35 point) strength, a large Seltorian force could take down a 30 hex web in 4 turns by firing WBs from range 5, including normal deterioration. Range 5 from the web should also be close enough to allow the Seltorians to charge any Tholian trying to reinforcing the web and get a good firing opportunity before the Tholian ducks back under an inner web layer. (Unless the Tholian is moving speed 30 and intends on spending no more than 2 impulses reinforcing web.) With the damage reduction on Tholian phasers, a Tholian SB would only knock down a cruiser's shield each turn. (Range 10 with a -4 to damage.) Time and weapons I would spend on removing minefields and attrition units will instead go to removing web and ships trying to reinforce web.

Can enough Seltorians survive long enough to kill multiple web layers and demolish most Tholian ships cowering at a Tholian base to permit a second or later Seltorian wave to have an easy time removing the base? I doubt the Seltorians have to kill Tholian bases and major installations faster than the various Alpha races kill each other in F&E.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:23 am: Edit

Daniel;

I believe you are mistaken in your rules interpretation that the Tholians can put "excess" points into a web above strength 35. Note the following from G10.3 (page 206 of Master Rulebook) "The maximum strength of any one web hex is 35; this limit does not increase with any advanced technology. Any excess fractional (or whole) points are lost." (emphasis mine). To me, that second sentence says that the maximum number of aggregate web strength points in any web is 35 x the number of hexes. You can't "stockpile" extra points in the web above this number to counter expected future deterioration or web breaker firings.

I don't dispute your larger point, by the way. The "Beginnings and Endings" scenario in Module C3 has the Selts killing the starbase as the historical result, with only the NCA escaping among the Tholian forces. I believe that with "typical" dice luck and good Tholian play the Tholians should win that scenario without too much difficulty. But I do think that 1050 is the largest number of aggregate strength points that any web can ever have.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Alan: You may be right. I dunno for sure either way (and I think I said that hehe) and my rulebooks are stuck behind a bunch of other things in a closet.

I asked for some clairifacation just to be sure. Certainly can't hurt and it's a big enough tactical differance to make things very differnt.

Richard: Err... why would you NOT have to remove a minefield from around a Neo-Tholian base? The only reason the minefield was very small around my campaign base was that I couldn't afford to make it bigger under our specific rules.

The Tholians (and basicly every other race) don't have this problem since mines are disgustingly cheap. You can expect to see a minefield around both Tholian and Seltorian bases which can't be just discounted.

Experiance in our games says no, the Seltorians do not live long enough to knock down multiple layers of web. Phaser fire is not only from the base remember but from the defending ships as well. Particuarly when ships move out to reinforce the web and defenders move in to try and stop them. At that point you have the two ships at or near range 2 with the Tholian being able to get off an un-answered phaser salvo before the attacking ship can move into the web.

Also remember that though the ships do not use sensor channels, the bases DO and are quite capiable of playing some very nasty EW tricks on the attackers.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:37 pm: Edit

The Selts don't have a scout?

Also, is the web at full strength when you started the scenario? And did the Tholians pay the full BPV cost of doing so?

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

The seltorians and tholians don't have ship based scouts in the THG.

I don't remember the exact starting strengh but I do remember paying a cost per turn in EP for it. I think it was at a lower status than WS3. I don't remember all the specifric details to well aside from the bugs had a hard time bringing down the web and were taking loses to quickly. I'm fairly certain that the web started around 20sih or more (it was the only BATS I'd mangaged to build so far) and the entire first turn the NBB and PC powered the web while the bugs closed range. It was like 2-3 years ago so forgive me if details are fuzzy.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page about what is used....

Some of what is below has had some weird contridictions crop up in various places that make some of these seem partly or wholely suspect. I marked the weirdest one in red. Even so, I included the whole thing.

Remember that this text was written prior to module-Y, GURPS PD, and most of the R modules.

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(R7.60B) TECHNOLOGY NOTES: The Tholian fleet, with no real threat to its combat power, had not evolved during the centuries of rule, and their ships were (apparently) unchanged during all that time. The Tholians never used seeking weapons (not even suicide shuttles).

Tholian ships in their own galaxy used particle cannons, but the ones on the 312th Squadron had been cannibalized for components to keep the ships alive, and the Holdfast did not have the technological base to repair or rebuild these weapons, so the ships of the 312th were fitted with disrupters (which the Holdfast could produce in quantity).

The Tholians, in their Home Galaxy, did not operate fighters or carriers, nor did they develop PFs. The equivalent of X-technology was never developed in that Home Galaxy.

Tholian ships in their Home Galaxy did not have the "engineering problems" that Tholian ships had in our galaxy (G22.46).

For battles in the Tholian Home Galaxy, neither the Tholians nor the Seltorians can use: fighters, MRS shuttles, scouts, PFTs, PFs, interceptors, web spinners, suicide shuttles, T-bombs, aegis (in any form), carriers, escorts, snares or WWs. The Home Galaxy Tholians did have the Web Anchor Buoy (G26.0) but rarely used it since they had plenty of ships. (The Tholians in our galaxy rediscovered the original concept.) The Home Galaxy Tholians used mines of all types (including small mines), but never developed transporter bombs. Home Galaxy Tholian PCs and COMs can pinwheel; the Tholians in our galaxy developed the lost tactic independently.

Tholians (and Seltorians) in the original Tholian Home Galaxy are NOT under the "Early Years" technology restrictions to be seen in Module Y. The Tholians who arrived in our galaxy had lost some technology (partly reducing them to the Early Years level) and gained it back over the years.

Similarly, Tholians in the Home Galaxy use the web factors in (G10.322), under which one point of energy produces two web strength points. The "improvements" in (G10.32) indicate recovery of lost technology, not an advance in new technology.

A Neo-Tholian starbase SSD is provided. Neo-Tholians use the same BATSW as Tholians in this galaxy.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Just goes to show that you can't rely on GURPS PD for SFU History.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Funny, I was just reading that section. No scouts, I forgot.

Note that although the HG Tholians had Web Anchor Bouys they rarely used them because they had pleanty of ships so they certaily had more than a single fleet.

I agree that the major operation would have to be fast and simultanious strikes through out the galaxy or else advancements in technology could cause them to fail.

Tholian military tech had stagnated for a very long time so it goes that technological research (in weapons and ship design) had fallen to near zero. To advance their technology a researce infrastructure would first have to be created, then implemented and the results tested. I'd say it would be a minimum of a decade before anything new came out. I'd also say the Selts won before that.


One more point: No one knows what happened after the war was won. Maybe soon after the Selts sent out their expeditions to hunt down rogue Tholians the Tholians made a come back. Or another race wiped out the Selts with a biological attack (using advanced RAIDers...hee hee) or any number of possabilities. Maybe the war continues...

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Daniel: sorry, no. What I wrote in GPD was: The Tholians are an ancient extragalactic race. They had TL14 in their home galaxy, but the refugees who arrived in the Milky Way had only TL12 (plus one very big TL14 artifact). (For those of you who don't have GPD, TL12 is late General War tech, and TL13 is X-tech, PFs, etc. The Tholians had TL12 upon arrival in Y79, and (re)achieved TL13 in Y183.)

You are making the incorrect assumption that just because someone has a given tech level, that they automatically develop a given gizmo. An excellent example are the unbuilt Fed PFs -- they had the tech level, and could have built them, but chose not to.

Please read the "factory warranty" that came with GPD -- page 153, especially the paragraph that is titled "PD vs SFU", and the line within it that reads "... no one should try to use a reference in (or a concept extrapolated from) GPD to argue for a given rules interpretation (let alone a change to a published rule) for other games of the SFU ..."

SVC wrote that page, not me. The intention is, and has always been, that nothing in GPD or any of its supplements can be used to justify a change in SFB or F&E.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Oh, by the way: X2-tech is probably going to be TL15, not TL14.

TL14 will probably be X1P, X1R, and so forth. But no decision has been made either way, yet, and probably won't be made until X1 and X2 are published, either.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 04:42 pm: Edit

John: I suppose thats one way to put it. It does confuse things at the same time it provides the only real indication of the tech level of the THG that I'm aware of. The same source presents the Seltorians with their own problem since they are listed as being at X0.

Loren:

I think a mix of the two could work. The tholians have the technolagy but have no operational ships using it.

The Seltorians have to make a rapid attack before the Tholians can re-tool their shipyards to use thier more advanced technolagy. Sort of like a less sevare example of what the Holdfast had to do.

The holdfast had designs for all tholians ships. They just lacked the production facilities to take advantage of them.

I can see the Will being in a simular situation. Most or all of their shipyards are geared to produce the normal tech, economy ships. It would take time to gear up another shipyard to produce their full tech level.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Gary: Okie dokie. Either way the same arguement applies since this entire thread is refering to them in their home galaxy (in case you missed that).

The bugs have to attack the tholians before the tholians deploy more advanced technolagy ships.

As far as the warrenty thingy, I don't exactly have alot of other information to go off of in regards to what is available or not so I'm just using what I can find. This discussion, I don't think, is about changing any rules.

It's about figureing out how to flesh out the THG and figuring out how the Seltorians could win and why they did some things a certain way.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:01 pm: Edit

One thing to consider, the Tholians are cheap. Would they pay for maintaining more that one ring of web when they had no significant threats, other than an occasional space monster? At the very least it should have made the Seltorian's initial attacks easier.

ADM

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:16 pm: Edit

First ring would be normally maintained by the sphere using energy from it's sun (that is gathered and converted).

There is always several PC's and Web Spinners around so laying the second layer would go pretty quick. Note that the first layer is the size of the second layer around a base and the Second layer is the size of a bases third layer.

There is no sneaking up on a Sphere, I would imagin. Pleanty of Special Sensors and officers on duty to make that near impossible.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 04:15 am: Edit

DKT: Regarding minefields, my experience is that the Tholians need to spread the automatic minefield considerably to keep from adversely impacting attempts to reinforce the web. In turn, that results in a very thin minefield with few mines actually triggered. The (SH110) phaser captors have a pretty meagre effect after firing through web.

Note: Looking at (SH110) again, I wonder if the web with all its anchors was supposed to a wedding cake comprised of short anchored linear web segments not giant globular web. The short segments would be small enough to knock down in a single impulse with web breakers and the scenario would play very differently.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 04:22 am: Edit

Richard, linear webs can't be adjacent to any other linear webs so you wouldn't have a solid wedding cake, but one with a bunch of holes in it.

in additon all the different segments would have to be reinforced individually, making it really hard on the tholians.

however take a look at the buzzsaw approach, since that can be powered by the center the tholians don't have to worry about the web going down, just about running out of mines in the areas between the spokes

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 11:52 am: Edit

Richard Wells and David Lang;

Note G10.1331, which includes the following two sentences: "For example, a hexagonal web with asteroids in each of the six corners is not a globular web but is, instead, a connected group of six linear webs. Because they are connected, they are treated as a single entity for the distribution of strength points." (emphasis mine).

For linear webs generally, note G10.1183 - "An additional section of web can be laid to a given anchor point. At the instant the ship laying the web lays web in a hex adjacent to the anchor point, the two web sections are joined and the strength of the web must be adjusted for the new length." (emphasis mine). There is no provision in the rules for a linear web with different sections of the same connected web having different strengths. All connected web hexes, whether linear or globular, are treated as one web for strength and reinforcement purposes, regardless of any intermediate anchor points.