Well wherever there's dogs, fleas can't be far behind.

RE an X2 PC. I like the idea. 1-hold caps should be a part of the GW PC IMHO. I would support a 0-hold PC for X2.

An interesting improvement for X2 would be allowing the PC to fire every 12 impulses as long as there's power int he capacitor and standardize the energy costs for standard and OL.

If you double-overload, the penalty is obvious: cooldown. 20-32 impulses ought to do it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:16 pm: Edit

John;

But that doesn't answer the question of whether it should be a Tholian weapon or a Selt one. As I mentioned earlier, I'm leaning toward Seltorian, personally.

I'm still not convinced of the need from a game standpoint, completely separate from historical plausibility, of giving the Tholians particle cannon technology.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Alan: You answered your own question. My source is the rule book. My statement obviously wouldn't include any speculation about non-Alpha Selts. That wasn't the context.

Any Selts showing up would be from elsewhere and probably would be just like the Selts that first made it here.

Multiple expodition were sent out but as I recall one was sent to each galaxy. NOthing says more that one expodition was sent to the Milkyway but nothing specifically says there wasn't.

To have Selts in X2 would require the arrival of a new expodition. I think it's unlikely that they would survive long but something could be made up out of the blue.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Loren;

I don't think there is anything, though I'll check when I get home, that says definitively that only one expedition was sent to each galaxy.

My hypothesis, it is of course nothing more than that, is that the Seltorians knew or suspected there was a Tholian presence in our galaxy but didn't know where in the galaxy it was. Seltorians show up at several different points in our galaxy, more or less simultaneously, to look for them. At least one of these enclaves survives long enough to establish a permanent presence capable of producing SC2 ships and researching advanced technology, based partly on what they hear from the Alpha Sector Seltorians and partly on interactions (which may be friendly) with a race they meet in the section of the galaxy they occupy. From the final transmissions of the Alpha Selts before they are destroyed, the "other" Selts learn of the destruction and that the Tholians have not been destroyed. Sometime around Y200, an expedition launched by this other Selt enclave arrives in Alpha, but this time with capital ships of their own, including X-ships. They may also have weapons never previously encountered in Alpha Sector, acquired from some race in their arrival sector just as the Alpha Selts acquired fighters and drones from the Klingons.

All just a hypothesis of course. But I think it makes the Y200+ situation more interesting if the Tholians find themselves having to deal with advanced Selts.

By Chad Carew (Blackhawkckc) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Maybe they were in the LMC? After some contact with Apha races post Op-Unity they figured out there were tholians there. After the galactics left the LMC, they followed shortly thereafter.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 07:22 pm: Edit

A long time ago, I proposed a "particle disruptor" for my X2 Klingon submission. A disruptor that fires twice a turn, as long as one or both shots are standards.

How about this for something that requires much different tactics to use to its fullest ability:

A X2-PC, which fires 3 times a turn, but keeps the 12 impulse delay.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Alan,

The best reason I can come up with for giving the Thols back PC technology is "diversity".

Half the major races in SFB use disruptors.

Bleah.

Let's break that up a little. Same rationale for converting the Kzintis to the Disruptor Cannon.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Jeff,

I knew someone had, but couldn't recall who. I thought it was a pretty cool idea, and would strongly consider it if it could be worked out right.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 09:40 pm: Edit

I'm all for giving the Tholians a PC for the reason of breaking things up. The Selts won't be present (unless there is some big new introduction) so no one else would be using it. No doubt they have some captured examples and given time they might be capable of reverse engineering it. But it's not going to be much better except for the bennifit of other technologies advanced nature, hence larger Cap and better targeting (i.e R40).

Then also equip the Tholians with other weapons such WC and maybe a mix of PC's and photons.

Here is the thing about Disruptors. The Tholians have old Disr tech. They will need to compete with the new X2 disruptors and they don't have THAT tech. So, give them the PC.

Then create mixed fleets! Gack!

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:45 am: Edit

Loren;

As you know, I think you're reading too much into things when you say that the Seltorians won't be back. But SVC will make that final call, as we all know.

John;

But see my posting on 3:32 pm on September 17th. That takes the Tholian X2 ships in a completely different direction in terms of heavy weapons and gets them out of the disruptor, photon, and particle cannon business for their X2 ships. Don't like the web lance idea? That's fine, but there are still other directions you can take the Tholians that won't have them remain "another disruptor race" but which also leaves particle cannons for the Seltorians. For example, some time ago Mike Raper proposed a "phaser array" as an alternate to the phaser-5. Each individual "phaser-x" in the array was more like a phaser-1 than a phaser-5 (a bit better than a phaser-1 at medium and long range) but when the phasers in the array narrow salvoed at the same target, they got negative DRMs, -1 for a two-phaser array and -2 for a four-phaser array. Suppose the "phaser array" or some similar idea became the Tholian "heavy weapon", along with web casters for their largest ships. A Tholian X2 fleet would then have less true heavy weapon firepower but more phaser firepower than a comparable BPV X2 fleet of any other race (other than Hydrans at very close range). This fits in well with web technology generally.

There are lots of things that could be done along these lines or "web lance" lines that would make the Tholians distinct but would reserve advanced technology web breakers for X-Seltorians, which I still believe will appear eventually.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 01:36 pm: Edit

I haven't tested any of this but...

Web Casters:

I'm curious why nobody seems to have suggested adding 1 hex to max lenght and one to the capiciter. In addition how about increasing the range from 30 to 40? It's not exactly a hugely useful step but it does fall inline with the various other weapons increasing in range.

ie; can make a max of a 6 hex web with 7 power points. That is only a strengh 11 web at full lenght.

Web fist:

Using the above the max damage for 7 points of power would be 14-12-10. Yes, the web fist function gets rather scary for GW ships but it's not much worse than anywhere else.

If you increase the range of the caster than the fist also increases in range, adding a 31-40 range column that requires a 1 to hit.

Particle Cannons:

As is probably obvious, I prefer the Tholians having particle cannons instead of disruptors. Some of the proposals look intresting (Loren's 'shoot through web').

I personally favor range-40, two overload shots. I do agree though that even with that, they are a weak weapon compared to other X2 weapons.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Alan:

I like web web lance except that, from my perspective, there are some problems with it.

It would be extreamly power hungry. More so than any of the weapons it's replacing.

It's inaccurate. Even at point blank range it still has a 1-4 to hit. Compared to other heavy weapons i've been reading about for X2 this would be a step backwords.

However; what if you combinded the web fists scaleable damage system (not necisarily the same system as the caster) with a disrupter/pc firing table?

What if the said web could fire multiple times per turn with each shot taking up a certain amount of power from the total.

ie; say the web cannon has 7 power at the start of the turn. Each shot can use between 1 and max power with a 6 impulse delay between shots.

Impulse 1: Tholian ship fires one shot using 2 points of power at a target 20 hexes away. It scores a hit and does 2 damage.

Impulse 7: The ship fires again, at a target within 10 hexes and uses 1 point of power. It hits and does 2 points to it.

Impulse 13: The ship fires a 3rd time, using 3 power at someone under range 10, and hits the target for 6 damage.

It would need further refinement but it's at least a thought.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:22 pm: Edit

But consider, what is their tactical doctrine? (defensive)

How effective is the PC when conbined with other weapons on a Tholian ship. If we impropve the web caster and snare and then also give the Tholians the Phaser-5 in sufficient quantities then the PC can lag a bit when compared directly with other X2 weapons.

Really the X2 PC only needs to be better that the X1 Disruptor not better or as good as than the X2 disruptor.

What will be usefull about the PC is that the Tholians will be able to send out a volley of fire then still maintain some stand off ability. Enemies will not be able to simply race in after the Tholians fire at range because they will have another volley ready almost imediately.

The mizia effect of the PC on ships who dive into web will also be desirable to the Tholains. They don't nessasarilly need to blow ships up fast, just disarm them and remove the threat. There is little better way than mizia for that.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Loren:

Not sure if you are agreeing or not :D

The upgrades for the X2 PC (range 40, double overloads) I think are probably a given if it is used. I do agree, partly, that it may not have to be as good as the other X2 weapons. I dunno.

------

Personally, I think the whole idea that the Tholians are purely defensive is incorrect. Making ships that serve only a single purpose I belive isn't nessciarly the right way to go.

They are, simultaniusly, xenophibicly offensive and realistic. Recall that they intercept ANY ships that enter their territory with whatever forces that have available and either capture or destroy them. That doesn't sound defensive only. It does sound isolationist.

You don't have to play Tholians defensivly. This, i think, is a big misconception about them.

Yes, they are very good at defending bases but base assaults are going to be the exception rather than the rule. The majority of the engagements they will be in are ship vs ship.

It's the same reason that there are so few phaser only Tholian designs.

Ships that are designed only to defend a base see very little use elsewhere.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Alan,

I'll check your web lance proposal more closely.

My lack of comment on it indicates having skimmed the wrong block of posts. If you preuse the X2 archives, you'll find I usually have an opinion on everything.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 03:30 pm: Edit

I didn't mean defensive in that way but being able to perform the defensive role is certainly a subject of strong consideration. Indeed, they can be very offensive when defending their territory but real threats will be against the fixed positions since that is how you will destroy them. Every hex in their territory is fortified.

They are fighting for survival and the only way to destroy them is to eliminate their bases. Anything else is just an exercise against them.

It is interesting to note that once the Klingons haven't a great need to reach the Romulans the Tholians actually become useful to them. Many a Klingon crew was trained in real combat against them and I would think that come Y205 the Klingons might enjoy having a battle field on which to blood their new crews again. They might well give up on ever conquering the Tholians and resign themselves to using them for training.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 03:42 pm: Edit

In combination with better phasers and some form of improved web casting weapon (be it Loren's "sticky" web fist, Alans lance, or something else), a PC with range 40 and the option of overloading both shots, plus double capacitors, may be enough to start with. Rather than make them more powerful, just adding more may be good enough. Figure a 2XCA with six of these puppies, plus a new phaser, plus some new web device, and plus any other X2 improvements that come along, and you've got a pretty nasty little ship that should be more than capable of holding its own against the other 2X stuff that I've seen so far, my own included. A PC such as I just described is better than the X1 disruptor, and so would be of interest to the Tholians.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Alan,

I agree with Loren, just a dedicated web-fist would be unplayably power-hungry.

This can be dealt with, however.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 11:11 pm: Edit

I suggested a Web Torpedo once before.

Take the Plasma rules and change the damage into impulses the torpedo keeps the target ship stationary (sort of like a stasis field) after it hits. The target ship can't shoot or beam or whatever out of the web (as per normal rules). The web only surrounds the target ship and affects nothing else in that hex.

For starters, try a Plasma-R and see how it works as web.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:46 am: Edit

Radiocyborg: That may fall under the no-seeking-weapons-for-Tholians rule. It's certainly better than giving them real plasma, though...

Why not just have the beast create a one-hex globular web of strength x in the target's hex?

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 01:45 am: Edit

RNB: While on the surface it may be nice, for balance purposes you do NOT want the Tholians to start being able to cast web and have seeking weapons. That gets very evil, very quickly and is nearly on the same scale as Andros with plasma.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 02:37 am: Edit

As an alternative maybe the target ship can fire phasers into the web once trapped and whittle down the impulses remaining.

Remember this does not actually damage the target ship, it just temporarily captures it and prevents it from contributing to the battle for that period of time. Also keep in mind the torpedo only covers its target, not hexes. It has to be armed over turns and fired. It can be fired at.

The no-seekers-for-Tholians rule notwithstanding, is this a game-breaker? I don't know but I personally don't think so.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 02:38 am: Edit

No seeking weapons for Tholians... Hmm reminds me of my first campaign. Took me entire Gorn fleet after the Tholians and showed up at their door step and issued the following.


"We demand you immediate and mostly conditionless alliance!"

Gorn fleets then struck fixed defenses and tholian bases went up behind all across the galaxy.... at least until the GM Fully outloaded Hydran Battelship lead 12 ship fleets arrived!

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 02:48 am: Edit

Furthermore you could limit it to 1 torpedo launcher for SC3 units and 2 for SC2 units (if available). The rationale is easy: funding and resources limit wider use.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit

There was the web bunker idea I had for upgrading snares.

A Tholian ship does a special HET (this one is 360°. No change on the board but you spend an HET. You also spend energy for the web and you get a small globular web.

It is smaller than a hex (say 5 KM in diameter) so it doesn't stop passage through the hex but Tholian ship may designate entering it of not. Enemy ships may voluterilly enter the WB and get stuck in order to get a R0 shot at anything inside or just pass by it.

It is free standing web and uses those rules with the web being 1 hex for calculating strength.

Only one Web Bunker can be in one hex but can be next to any other web hex. Cannot exist in another web hex.

Any number of ships may be inside.

Web Bunkers cannot be created around ships that are not the spinning ship not even Tholian ones (they can enter after it is formed).

Note, stopping in a web bunker requires ending your movement for the turn in that hex. If you are in a Web Bunker hex moving at speed one you may enter and exit at any point prior to movement.

Ships passing through a Web Bunker hex faster than speed one may enter the web bunker for one impulse between movement (no matter how many impulses exist between movement). Player may choose which impulse.

Non-Tholians would become stuck and the web would block the FH arc (for both incomming and out going fire).

Tholians may turn off their pass through ability and become stuck purposfully. They must note whether this happens upon entering the Web Bunker or exiting. If on entering the WB is covering the FH arc. On exit it covers the RH arc. (at faster than light it is too difficult to maneuver to attain coverage of any arc by choice other than these two arcs)

Units inside a web bunker or stuck and covered in a certain direction are treated as being in an adjacent hex to a web hex (i.e. behind web).