Archive through September 24, 2004
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Tholian-Seltorian Home Galaxy + War:
Archive through September 24, 2004
Daniel: What existing minefields? Do you really think an empire that has dominated its entire galaxy for countless generations and has no enemies is going to "waste" money and time enhancing already impregnable defenses? The Holdfast will deploy mines in vaste quantities, along with all the other defensive tricks we associate with Tholians, but the Will is centuries beyond needing such toys. Frankly, I think the 12 phaser-captors in "Beginnings and Endings" are probably the high end of Tholian Will minefields for the start of the rebellion.
As I said before, the Will can be as cocky, arrogant, and sloppy/lazy as they need to be for the rebellion to succeed. Or, to combine ideas, they can be that lazy and then panic badly with the first well-publicized successful SB assaults.
Frank:
You need a minelayer to maintain the captor mines.
As was pointed out to me, if they had no enemies there wouldn't be a need for the size navy that they apparently had. As such there is apparently something around the galaxy that requires them to deploy ships as big as the NBB.
Given that, the reletive in-expense of mines, and the Tholians historical paranoia, I don't think it's that much of a guess that they have minefields.
I can't remember the Tholians ever really be portrayed as cocky or sloppy. Slow in reacting to change maybe, but once they decide to do something, they seem to find the most effective meathod to do it fairly quickly.
Quote:Tholians historical paranoia
The Tholians of the Holdfast are portrayed as being paranoid. There is no reason to believe that this is true in the Home Galaxy. That is really the thrust of our disagreement here, I think. I strongly suspect that the paranoia of the Tholian Holdfast is a reaction to their experience, being thrown from the heights of power by the Bugs they elevated.
I suppose I might be reading my own understanding of psychology into the game history, but in my experience people who are King of the Hill for a long time tend to become sloppy and lax, especially if they face no challenges for a prolonged period. The Tholian Will is in exactly that situation, since the only credible challenges they have faced in recent centuries has come from "Tholian Reformers".
IIRC, the base's shuttle fleet is quite capable of maintaining the (minimal) mines presented in that particular scenario.
Question: Why did the Tholian Will need such a large military?
The only threats in the Tholian home galaxy (that I am aware of) are armed freighters that go rogue, individual planets that try to rebel, and pirates. As seen in a recent Captain's Log, a small force led by a NCA or NCL is enough to deal with this level of danger to the Will.
Granted, NDNs and NBBs are needed to keep an eye on the Seltorians. But why were the Seltorians so well armed in the first place? It's like giving aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines to the US Coast Guard.
The Tholian Will built and maintained a large force to watch and even bigger force of Seltorians to face ... what?
Apologies if this has already been addressed.
Space Monsters?
ADM
There were Tholian "Reformers" which defected with significant ships to try to "reinvent" the Will. (SH120, S2)
NDN+NCA w/ numerous Selts.
I suspect the Tholian fleet is largely a relic of their original conquest, though probably with some level of "replacement" construction. The NDNs and NBBs particularly so.
The Seltorian fleet is quite large because it must patrol a substantial expanse of space, the entire (if a small one) Home Galaxy. Cruisers and larger are available, I suspect, for exactly the sort of thing A. David Merritt suggested, dealing with the more dangerous space monsters. Piracy is also a possibility to be dealt with. In addition, if a planet rebels and is "reduced" by a small Neo-Tholian squadron, there may still be a need for "boots on the ground", which can really only be provided by the Selts.
I would say that the Tholains had to maintain a fleet able to defeat their "most trusted subjects" as the history has shown they may revolt.
The Original tholians are in NO danger from the Selts until the webbreaker appears...
Well, tacticly at least they aren't in danger from the currently published Selts even with web breakers :-P
Frank:
The Tholians are paranoid Xenophobics from everything I've read. Both in this galaxy and in their home galaxy.
They just have a more severe case in this galaxy. Sorta like having their previous paranoia justified, hence making them even MORE paranoid.
Daniel: Then you must be reading something I haven't seen. We can agree the situation became worse in this galaxy, but what have you seen that indicates paranoia and xenophobia in THG?
There is a certain amount of "showing the flag" that is required to keep order. Forgetting idealism for a moment, obedience to the law occurs because the consequences of disobeience are unacceptable. No Tholian fleet, no unacceptable consequences.
"Terror must be maintained or the empire will crumble".
-That other Spock, "Mirror, Mirror"
Just a thought. It might be they wanted to deal with the "reformer" rebels with Tholian forces rather than Selt. Having your subject races fighting and killing the master race isn't good for the air of invincability. Not to mention giving the Selts practice at tactics to use against Tholian vessels.
Can someone remind me? Did the Tholians operate X1 tech ships in the home galaxy?
AFAIK the Tholian Will didn't need X ships.
There might have been plans for them, or there may not have been. But since they didn't even use T Bombs I'd have to say that they didn't have them.
The Tholians never operated X-ships or PFs in their Home Galaxy, per R7.60B in Module C3.
Tos;
Here's the last sentence from R7.60 in Module C2. "The later production of X-ships, which would have been impossible without the full cooperation of both factions, shows the extent this good will reached." This makes it sound as though the Tholians never had X-ships prior to building them in this galaxy, though I suppose it doesn't rule out Home Galaxy X-ships entirely. I always sort of assumed that the Home Galaxy Tholians never built X-ships despite having the technical capability because they assumed their existing designs were adequate and had total confidence in their absolute superiority. This confidence would not have been misplaced had the Seltorians not invented the web breaker. In support of this premise, note that R7.60A in Module C3 says that the Tholians used relatively few ship classes in their Home Galxy and says nothing whatever about X-ships. And R7.60B (also C3) also says "The Tholian fleet, with no real threat to its combat power, had not evolved during the centuries of rule, and the ships were (apparently) unchanged during all that time." So unless SVC or SPP says something new, I think we have to assume there were no Tholian Home Galaxy X-ships for the simple reason that the Tholians never bothered to upgrade their existing designs after completing their conquest.
As we all know, SVC will make the final decision on new X-ships and SPP will presumably have a major advisory role. But for what it's worth, here would be my preferences, in order for Tholian X-ships in X1R,
1) NCLX - If the modifications mirrored those done to the NCA-NCX conversion, this would be an extraordinarily efficient X-light cruiser. Unfortunately for the Tholians, they only had 6 in the 312th Battle Fleet and at least some were destroyed during the GW. (My gut feeling is 3, but that's only a gut feeling. I can't find any specific numbers to support it.)
2) "Some thing more powerful than their DDX but that can be built without using a web caster" - The Tholians having only low rate production on casters, they could definitely use an X-ship with more power/weapons than the DDX but which could be built in larger numbers than the excellent CCX. An X-ship based on the CW would fill the bill, as would one based on any of several versions of the Tholian War Destroyer recently discussed in that topic. For that matter, your proposed CANX would also work. But for my money, the CWH is the most promising candidate. Note that R7.39 (Module R5) says "The resulting ship was certainly more powerful than the standard CW, but due to the increased structural reinforcement necessary to keep the hull together at the joints, the ship could not be built as quickly as the normal CWs." Many races built X-light cruisers on "beefed up" versions of their CW designs. The above suggests the possibility (though only the Steves can determine if it's really possible) that the CWH is already beefed up enough that Tholians could convert already built CWHs to CWHXs. Given their limited hull production, this would be a substantial advantage, if it were possible. And though slower to build than standard CWs, CWHXs would at least not have production rates limited due to lack of web casters.
3) PFTX - This seems to me very obviously useful for the Tholians, though I would prefer to see it built using DDX engines. The PCX doesn't have enough power for the electronic warfare functions.
Ships that I think should be lower priority for inclusion include:
Tholian X-carrier of any kind. - Such a ship would make sense for some races (especially Hydrans and Feds). But with the possible exception of the Spider-5 fast heavy fighter, I don't think the Tholian fighters have enough firepower to justify commiting an X-ship to serve as a carrier.
NDDX or NFFX - Although I said earlier that I don't believe the Tholians had X-ships in their Home Galaxy, a Home Galaxy-only NDDX or NFFX might be workable along the following lines - After the Seltorian revolt started, the Tholians tried to upgrade their fleet. But their industrial base collapsed to quickly for them to do much. The only advanced designs they were able to field (in very small numbers) prior to conquest were advanced technolgy versions of some of their smallest ships. These were literally too little, too late. None of these advanced ships were with the 312th.
As I think about it, that rationale for NDDX and NFFX does kind of appeal to me. But it makes it harder to explain why the Seltorians didn't have some X-ships of their own when they showed up here.
All of the above is just my opinion, of course. As such, it is worth exactly as much as you payed for it.
X-ships in the Home Galaxy:
This is sort of a touchy issue I think since both sides can make arguements without thumping rule books.
Yes, the rules say they don't use them. But the Tholians are also, to be it bluntly, cheapscakes and resource hoarders from what I've read.
As I belive I've said before, the Neo's we currently have are, I belive, the mass production "lowest cost" design that the Tholians field and maintain because they haven't needed anything better since they finish conquoering the galaxy.
Basicly if you have a job that can be done by a 170 point, easy to maintain X0 NCA, why bother to build the 250+ point NCX/NCHX that is more expensive to maintain and is usually overkill for the normal tasks. I dunno..do you more or less understand what I'm trying to say?
Quote:I think we have to assume there were no Tholian Home Galaxy X-ships for the simple reason that the Tholians never bothered to upgrade their existing designs after completing their conquest.
I think it's more likely that, with targets pacified they simply let the advanced ships run their normal life span and didn't build more for the reason I listed above.
Quote:But it makes it harder to explain why the Seltorians didn't have some X-ships of their own when they showed up here.
Not really. In many ways the Seltorians are in the same position as the Holdfast. They were handed a bunch of technolagy and likely don't understand enough of it yet to reach X1 levels.
Alan:
1) Err... why exactly would the Tholians bother with the NCLX over the NCMX? Aside from it's a rather terrifing conversion.
2) I sent SVC a ship that is slightly larger than the DDX. It does have a single web caster though.
3) I agree this is very obvious particuarly since they have one of the best PFs in the game.
----
Overall I feel that there has to be some sort of substantial reason for the Seltorians to try to take over everywhere at once (Something that has a huge chance of failing rather quickly).
To me the most obvious reason for them to try an attack like that is fear of the Tholians deploying/redeploying advanced tech ships if the war took to long.
The Tholians do seem to have the technolagy level for it. But after so long producing normal ships I'd think it would take them some time to tool up one of their production facilities for it.
Daniel;
I mis-posted the commentary on Tholian X-ships. It was meant for the X1R thread. But briefly, I mentioned the NCLX rather than the NCMX because I assumed the latter was impossible. Collars were available for Neo-Tholians before X-tech was. (Note the YIS dates.) But the NCX is based on the straight NCA. I assumed that this meant that X-conversion stressed the ship to the point that it couldn't also support a collar. That parallels the rationale given for why there were no BCHXs. If the Steves decide to change this at some point in the future, that's fine. But based on Module X1, I assume the NCM can't be converted to X-tech.
P.S.
Daniel;
Why do you think it's more likely that the Tholians let their advanced ships wear out and and continued with production of non-X versions? This doesn't make a lot of sense. It's MUCH easier to keep current technology running than it is to keep obsolete technology running. This is currently a problem for a large (un-named) government agency for which the company I work for recently provided logistics-related analysis. They have these massive systems based on 1970s/1980s electronics and are starting to have real problems obtaining spare parts/components for them because of changes in commercial electronics technology. An awful lot of "upgrades" to large government systems (including military systems) are driven at least as much by this dynamic as they are by improved performance considerations.
Alan: Nah. It's just a matter of the collar being published after module X was. Unlike alot of galactic ships, the collar the same sort of 'Stick more weapons on the hull' that the rest of the races do. Last I knew (and it could have changed) the Steves didn't have a problem with the NCHX (Which, along with the NCH and NCM are both published after module X1)
Re; to question:
Because, as I understand it, the X0 ships are drasticly easier and cheaper to maintain than X1 ships. X0 vs X1 is a rather abstract idea in the first place though and I did not mean to say that there wouldn't have been any sort of equipment changes. Just that those changes seem to be based much more on cost than combat power.
I dunno.... I have a hard time explaining things.
Remember that the Tholians are maintaining a galactic presance. Without a serious threat to their combat power I just don't see the need for them to maintain a large fleet of X1 ships even if they do have the technolagy when the exact same missions can be done at roughly 1/3 less cost.
I dunno.... may if you tell me what you think I'm saying I can clear it up.
Daniel;
I haven't heard anything one way or the other from the Steves regarding an NCHX, so I don't know what they're thinking. If an NCHX is acceptable, then the NCMX would be preferable to the NCLX, I agree. I just haven't seen anything from an authoritative source (i.e. SVC or SPP) one way or the other.
Regarding the Tholians having but losing X-ships in the Home Galaxy, I think I understand what you're saying. I just think you're mistaken. Introducing a new ship technology has a huge initial expense (the "bow wave") but after it is fielded, the O&M costs tend to be less than the costs for keeping comparable capability using obsolete technology. I came out of the F-111 (former USAF Navigator/Weapons System Officer/Electronic Warfare Officer) and when that plane was boneyarded, it wasn't because it couldn't do the mission any more. As late as Kosovo, their were still some things the F-111 could do better than much newer aircraft like the F-15E and F-117. The F-111 was sent to the boneyard because the maintenance costs and maintenance manhours per flight hour were (so we were told) higher than for any other fighter in the U.S. (including Navy and Marine Corps) inventory. If Tholian parsimony is the reason that the Tholians, despite their tremendous technology, didn't have X-ships during the Seltorian revolt, the more plausible reason is that they never felt the need to develop X-ships in the first place. Once the technology was fielded, once past the bow wave, maintaining X-ship capability might well have been less expensive than keeping centuries-old (per Module C3) designs operating.
I would think we here are ina fundamentally different situation than the Thoian Will.
We still experience a drive to improve our technology, something the Tholians of the Will did not.
Think of everybody else having ironclads or worse. At that point if we have lots of WW2 technology ships, why do we need to upgrade to nuclear power? Why do we need to build aircraft carriers even if we have the technology. A WW2-era ship is very easy to build and maintain because production of components is already optimized and the yard crews know how to put it all together.
In that environment, you'd be more likley to add amenities for the crew than serious changes in combat technology.
Alan: Just want to make sure of something but you do understand that centuries-old designs does not nessicarirly mean the ships themselves are that old.
I *think* John more or less said what I'm trying to say.
I disagree that they didn't experiance a drive to improve technolagy. I just think they have refocused it on things like better sphere building and such. Things that don't nessicarily translate into something useable on a ship.
Though, the portable webcaster that one of their probes had in a old Prime Directive thingy was downright cool 
The NCHX et al. was submitted at the same time I sent in the NCH, NCM, NDDH and NFH (which have been published.. Yay!). If my memory is wrong or he changed his mind so be it, but they didn't seem to have a problem with them when I sent them in. Just didn't really have a place for them as I recall.
Daniel,
Agreed.
They improved things like fabricating technology (example: the automatic forges the Holdfast Tholians rely upon) and creating wonders that only a galaxy-wide tax base can do, like small dyson spheres.
Which may be why X1 tech was possible with the help of the neo tholians. The Holdfast Tholians might have known some of what the Feds and others were thinking due to General War contacts (but might no longer have the knowledge or know-how to fully understand and/or implement it) and the Neos would know enough advanced tech to figure out the direction the Alpha sector was headed but would have no access without their Holdfast bretheren.
Only complete and open-handed sharing between the 312th and the Holdfast would allow the Tholians to put all the pieces of the X-tech puzzle together.
I think a lot of people are hitting on some of the plausible scenarios for the state of the Tholian Home Galaxy at the time of the Seltorian Revolt.
The Tholian Will had NO external threats identified. (Though I bet the Andros would have had a field day in their Galaxy...)
Therefore they had 2 primary fleet elements.
1. Seltorians. Used to maintain the trade lanes against pirates and perform general patrolling. Since there was no organized/national level threat, they would be fighting against the equivalent of Armed Freighters and _maybe_ something like the Wyn AUX-class ships that somebody cobbled together. Frankly, it's amazing the Tholians let them have anything larger than a Battle Cruiser.
2. Tholians. Needed to keep the Seltorians and any reformist Tholians in line and provide security at major Tholian fleet and population centers. Used to ocassionally put down an uprising. (Better for the Tholians to put a rebellious planet back down than to let the Seltorians do it.)
The Seltorians should outnumber the Tholians (the need to be patrolling everywhere) but have fewer big ships and not be deployed in Fleet-size formations. Probably more than 3 Seltorian ships without a Tholian ship keeping watch was considered suspicious.
That gives them the numbers advantage. This becomes important at the rebellion since they need to hit lots of places and have lots of WebBreakers available. At say, 5-to-1 Seltorian-to-Tholian numbers (and probably higher than that), they would bring enough WebBreakers to the show to cause some serious problems, even if it was mostly in CA and CL sized hulls.