The Seltorian may have had monitor style ships or a gazillion web breaker armed freighters under their control when they rebelled.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 03:12 am: Edit

Though I bet the Andros would have had a field day in their Galaxy...

Actually I don't think they would have. They didn't much like dealing with the Tholians in this galaxy an they didn't have Battleships. Andros don't like web and webcasters.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 03:14 am: Edit

Question: Is the person in charge in the Webcaster control room the Web Casting Director?

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 03:33 am: Edit

The Seltorians need BCHs to deal with capturing bases (of reformist Tholian factions or rebel worlds). DNs are only a slight increase in danger and a natural consequence of the Seltorian design. As long as the Tholians want prisoners and are unwilling to have Tholian ships badly damaged in the process, the Seltorians will be given large ships.

Between subterfuge and Tholian division, I can see the Seltorians managing to succeed. Some regional Tholian governors may have stayed out of the early stages of the Seltorian Revolt in order to preserve forces to overthrow the corrupt and weakened Will after the Will neutralized the Revolt. With some of the scenarios implying that Rebel removal fleets comprised mixed Seltorian and Tholian ships, some early battles may have included Seltorians capturing numerous Tholians. The Tholians can't count on the Web Caster to give them time to respond to their auxillaries turning traitor at close range anymore.

Can captured Tholian ships manage to pass through web? (Seriously, I don't know.) If the Seltorians manage to take out a couple of Tholian bases by using faked convoys comprised of captured Tholian ships and Q-ships masquerading as freighters, the Seltorian task becomes much simpler. The Seltorians had a decade to plan their revolution and exploit any weakness in the standard Tholian webcentric tactical model. The Tholians have no chance to compensate.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:57 am: Edit

Richard:

A captured Tholian ship cannot pass through web (G10.532).

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:50 am: Edit

Did the Tholian's give the ability to pass through (and shoot phasers) to the Seltorian ships?

It would seem that the phaser shooting ability would be necessary in mixed Tholian-Seltorian task forces.

If only Tholian ships get the pass-through ability, how do ships go in and out of the web around Tholian Starbases and Planets during peacetime?

Obviously, the "codes" to do this could be changed in an instant if an accompanying Seltorian ship went rogue. (Just like having a Tholian ship captured.)

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:59 am: Edit

Andros would have done great in the THG.

The problem they had in our Galaxy was...

1. All fleets were composed of veteran ships.
2. Optimal ships (CWs, PFs, etc.) were in service in quantity.
3. Everyone was at wartime production.
4. The ISC Pacification Program had allowed fleet strength to rise without any offsetting losses while still maintaining a wartime footing.

The THG didn't have any of those advantages. Our Galaxy was them falling into the middle of a blender on "Puree".

Plus, the Tholians are very dependant on the WebCaster superiority. The first time an Andro DisDeved _across_ a cast line of web would have put panic into the entire Tholian Navy.

Add that to Particle Cannons not having the crunch power that drones, plasmas, photons, etc gave the Galactic Powers nor Disruptor leak, and it's tough for the Tholian's to deal with them.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:19 am: Edit

There are two ways the Selts might get ships passed web as far as I can imagine.

1) The same way an explosive freighter does it at any base. They somehow get the base to allow it in.

2) The ship in question begins on the side of the Tholian base and as such has the frequency and subspace levels of the web in to match with to have the pass through ability. This ability would likely be lost the turn after the deception was revieled. (this is conjecture but matches a piece I'm working on for the "Why Things Work GPD. It is NOT official.)

Ultimately these are prescenario set-ups but could possably be historical. The problems is that once the Revolt was fully underway it would become nearly impossible to do it again. You might get a couple attempts in while wearing a different shirt but after that that plan is played out.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:24 am: Edit

Daniel and John;

When did I ever suggest that the Home Galaxy Tholians didn't improve their technology? Obviously they did. What I suggested is that they didn't deploy advanced technology warships, which is a different matter.

Daniel suggests that the Home Galaxy Tholians did in fact deploy X-ships and then went back to older designs after they completed their conquests. (Daniel, please correct me if I have mischaracterized your argument. This is what it seems like you are saying, to me.) This seems to me implausible because it ignores the way O&M (Operations and Maintenance) costs actually work in the real world.

There are two times during the life of most systems when they might be said to be disproportionately expensive, when the technology is brand new (the "bow wave") and when it is obsolete. The expense in the latter case is driven by factors such as the difficulty of obtaining replacement components/spare parts, and the shortened Mean Time Between Failures (MBTF) which increases the number of maintenance man hours to keep the system operational. I argue that it is more plausible that the Tholians never deployed X-ships in the Home Galaxy in the first place, because they never felt the need to incur the "bow wave" expenses. But if they had deployed the technology, it would have made sense to keep it because it would postpone/reduce the "end of life" O&M costs inherent in keeping obsolescent systems running.

Daniel - I'm aware that the individual ships wouldn't be centuries old. I just don't see the relevance to the question of Home Galaxy X-ships.

One additional comment about O&M costs: It is not an absolute law that obsolete systems cost more to maintain than newer systems, but on an equal capabilities basis it is a very good rule of thumb. Certainly we could keep B-29s flying for much less than we could keep an equivalent number of B2s flying. But it would take many, many B-29s to equal the capability of just one B2, particularly when things like survivability against enemy air defenses are factored in. Similarly, if the Tholians required a certain amount of warship capability to maintain order and control in the Home Galaxy, they would need fewer X-ships than older ships to achieve that level of capability.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

Indeed, the ships the Tholians had during the Seltorian Revolt were the X-Tech of their galaxy.

Tholians in THIS galaxy only developed X-tech because of the trends and infuences that occured here.

NOW: It is not know what the final fate of the Tholians actually is. When our Tholians escaped the THG they assumed they were the last survivors. When the Neo-arrived they provided good intel but since we are talking a galactic empire in termoil their info most certainly couldn't be complete. Any number of things may have happened. A wierd natural desaster might have befell a Seltorian assault and gave a Tholian enclave a place to dig in. Maybe there is an area of space that amplifies web strength. Perhaps the Tholians subdue space monsters in some corner of the galaxy and are fightng back. Perhaps in the last years of the revolt the Tholian manage to produce X-ships and are able to maintain a Federation sized corner of the galaxy...or move to a different galaxy perhaps their equivelent of the LMC. THere are always possabilities for after the Neo's left the THG.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:47 am: Edit

The problem with maintaining order in THG isn't the combat power of the individual ship. The problem is having enough ships to patrol the entire Tholian Will.

Nobody disputes that an X-tech vessel give you more bang-per-hull. But, that hull can only be one place. And they problems they faced didn't require X-tech to handle them.

I think it's more a case of the Tholian's can have one Mercedes or three Kia's in the garage.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Well, in the THG those would be Chevy's.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 01:40 pm: Edit

You guys have forgotten something: Module C3, page 15, R7.60B, The Tholians, in their Home Galaxy ... the equivalent of X-technology was never developed in that Home Galaxy.

That's pretty definitive. There's a whole long list of what tech the Tholians and Neo's had and did not have. This means that if you want HG Tholians to have X-tech, you're going to have to present the Steves with a persuasive argument -- good luck doing that!

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Greg Bear;

But there's also the fact that X-ships are strategically faster and have longer range. So they could get to trouble spots quicker. And the ratio isn't anything like 3 to 1. It's more like 3 to 2. The only "official" X-ships we know about that existed in the Home Galaxy (as non-X versions) are the PCX and NCX. PCX versus PC is 105 BPF to 59. This is about a 2 to 1 ratio, but the PCX was a police ship in the Home Galaxy (though presumably they had POLs as well) so the NCX to NCA comparison would be more apt for warships. The ratio here is 240 to 170 which is about 3 to 2 ratio (actually, 3 NCAs cost more than 2 NCXs but 4 NCAs cost less than 3 NCXs so the ratio is between 3 to 2 and 4 to 3). It must be added of course that Home Galaxy X-ships would have X-particle cannons rather than disruptors and we can only speculate about what an X-particle cannon would be like. None of us really knows. We therefor can't say exactly what the cost of a Home Galaxy NCX would be, but it seems unlikely that it would be that much different from the 3 to 2 ratio.

Given both the greater strategic speed/range of the X-ships and the greater combat power (and including the fact, which nobody else has even addressed, that end-of-life costs for obsolescent technology would tend to make older-design ships increasingly expensive to support), I still maintain that the most likely scenario is not that the Tholians developed and then rejected X-tech. It's that the the Tholians in the Home Galaxy never developed X-ships in the first place because they didn't feel the need to do so, and didn't want to pay the bow wave costs for capabilities they didn't think they would need.

Loren's suggestion that the remnants of the Home Galaxy Tholians did develope X-ships after the Dyson Sphere and the 312th had left the galaxy is more plausible. And in fact I broached a similar possibility earlier. But there is no reason at all to believe that the Tholians had any X-ships prior to the Seltorian revolt.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Gary: We're more or less ignoring rules for the moment while we work out the "why" for things. Rules are good referance but mostly get in the way if they are to inflexiable for people to figure out the "why" of them.

No, the Seltorians never had web pass. The Tholians DID install web anchor abilities though. Though I think 'install' is the wrong word.

---

Quote:

The problem with maintaining order in THG isn't the combat power of the individual ship. The problem is having enough ships to patrol the entire Tholian Will.

Nobody disputes that an X-tech vessel give you more bang-per-hull. But, that hull can only be one place. And they problems they faced didn't require X-tech to handle them.

I think it's more a case of the Tholian's can have one Mercedes or three Kia's in the garage.

---

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 05:25 pm: Edit

If I was leading a government that has been stable and in absolute control for 1000+ years with no end in sight the most important things to me for my fleet would hull longevity and low operational expenses. It is a central tenant for me that X1 engines are the most expensive engines to operate and would only be in service in case of emergency. Something I hadn’t thought of until now is that X1 engines probably pollute at a much greater rate, something important to a race with a 1000-year horizon.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:33 pm: Edit

X-technology has one other drawback for the Tholisn Will. The increased range simplifies the task of a reform group to overthrow the central government.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Well, AFAICT it left in due haste. That particular shpere was facing destruction for sure or they would not have run. I can see maybe a ship panicking and running but not a Sphere with over two billion people on it.

However, yes, there is many possabilities for what the news that the 312th actually was and what had happened after they left.

We in THIS galaxy may never know what that is. It can only be speculation and such stuff could be explored in SSJ.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:20 pm: Edit

one thing we do know is that the selts felt in control of things enough to send expeditionary forces to chase down fleeing tholians

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Yup. That's a very good way to put it too.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:56 am: Edit

Maybe the Tholian's that cut and run (with their Dyson Sphere) were the ones that DIDN'T panic.

Based on the Tholian's being overconfident and then suddenly having the confidence shaken by a rebellion going too well that is equiped with WebBreakers, most of the Tholian worlds may have just pulled into their web and waited.

Even if the Seltorian's didn't have enough combat power to reduce a Dyson Sphere's defenses (inside web), they sure could do a siege/blockade.

The plan may have been to divide-and-conquer. Make one strong force and go around and crack each of these Tholian population centers while you blockade the ones that are "next" on the list.

Only the Tholian's that came to our Galaxy may have been the ones that got away because they didn't panic and stay put and instead objectively evaluated the situation and decided they had to leave NOW or they wouldn't get out.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 01:14 am: Edit

Gary: Possable I guess but didn't the Sphere arrive throguh a wormhole? Or at least part way?

I think that it had to have been an artifical wormhole since I can't imagine anyone is that •••• lucky to have a wormhole just appear conviently when you happen to need it in order to evacuate.

If it was a natural thing though, maybe it wasn't so much panic as it was the leaders on a sphere in a poor position (under siege) seeing a oppertunity and taking it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:18 am: Edit

DKT: I've discussed the Worm Hole idea already with the Steves and that is part of a scenario that was published but UNOFFICIAL. Strictly unofficial and may not be reprinted.


Gary: That is a similar process to what I was thinking.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:21 pm: Edit

I think people may be reading too much into this "Tholian reformers" thing. My impression is that it was a political/social reform movement, but people are talking as though they also controlled actual warships, and I don't think that's the case.

I could very well be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last. That's why I'm asking if anyone can actually cite a source supporting the notion that these "reformers" were actually in control, historically, of military forces.

Note on sources: "IIRC" is not a source. IIRC is saying you think that's the way it is, but you don't really know. "It's in one of the Captain's Logs" is not citing a source. "The article beginning on page ABC of Captain's Log #XYZ" is a source. "It's in the rules" is not a source. Which rule? Which product? And finally, it's not a source to site a discussion from this board unless you give the topic and date so that someone else can check up on it.

As I say, my impression is that these reformers did not control actual military power but I may well be wrong on that. That's exactly why I'm looking for a verifiable source to nail this down.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Alan: We all know those things are NOT sources. Most of us have graduated High School so that's no above us.

When people DON'T have a FIRM source they my offer leads or suggestion where to go. They don't always have theri rule books around so they cannot fulfill the service you request but are still trying to help.

What you are saying is "Don't post unless you have exactly what I want." or at least that's how I read it. I suggest you consider that talking down to us like that won't inspire many to help.