Well, say you are in your Tholian XCA. You have a target out at around range 15 or so. You don't have any PC's left, but your buddies do. On the first firing step, you choose not to fire, instead waiting to see what the PC's from your fleet do to the target. They hit it, knock down the shields, and leave you a free shot at the internals of the ship. Now, if they HADN'T hit it, you wouldn't fire and waste your phaser energy. As it is, you get free internal damage because you waited for that option. The target can't escape it; he can't HET, use reinforcment, or anything because it's all one impulse. This very example came up in test play between the Fed and Klingon X2 ships I made. The Fed launched photons at range 8, but held back the phasers. When the photons would hit, and take down a shield, I would immediately follow up with my second stage phaser option, scoring nice big chunks of internal damage. If they missed, I held the phaser fire back until I could do more with it. It is a great option, if you use it well.

By Jeff Tonglet (Blackbeard) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 08:16 pm: Edit

Particle Disruptor (A new weapon propsal for X2)

The Tholians, who had become skilled in building disruptors, and the NeoTholians, who understood particle cannons, combined ideas to create this new weapon (essentially, disruptor to-hits and damage, PC arming and firing cycle, no-burnout UIM)

Each particle disruptor has a capacitor that can hold up to 6 points of energy. Hold cost is 1/4 of the power in its capacitor.

Standard shot is 2 power, OL is 4 power. The decision is made at the moment of firing.

There is a 12 impulse delay between shots.

Range	0	1	2	3-4	5-8	9-15	16-22	23-30	31-40
Standard	x	1-5	1-5	1-4	1-4	1-4	1-4	1-3	1-2
Damage (std)	x	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1
OL	1-6	1-5	1-5	1-5	1-5	x	x	x	x
Damage (OL)	10	10	8	8	6	x	x	x	x

Note:
I originally put this on my X2 Klingon ship, as a colaboration between the Klingons and the Selts.
If anyone would invent a no-burnout UIM, it would be the Klingons.
And I thought this would be a good weapon for the Klingons to saber dance with.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Ken: They AREN'T seperate vollies. Not in terms of the DAC.

Mike: Err.... it doesn't work like that.

You have to declare both firing steps at the same point in fire declration last I knew. You just simply got to state in which order the fire is resolved.

You don't get to re-declare fire based on the results of the first step. Thats Aegis.

And even if you do fire in the second step the target can still use batteries to raise general reinforcement.

This is the big reason that I don't see a reason for the phasers to bother with a second step.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Ummm, yeeaaahh, and if it were a Hellbore, that might be true...but it isn't, is it? It's an X-phaser, and it works just as I described. I know, because I wrote the rule for it. It fires during the two hellbore stages, but there is no requirement to declare the order. Never said there was. Sorry for the confusion, but I use the hellbore firing stage example because A) that's when it is allowed to fire and B) everyone knows what that means. It was just the quickest way to get the idea across that it can fire before or after other weapons fire.

Now, with all that said, there is nothing to say that any of this is better or worse than anything else out there right now. One thing those of us involved in this thread from the beginning have learned is that there are many, many ways to go with all this X2 stuff. I like the PX because it is different, not just bigger/more powerful. In playtesting, it works pretty good and adds some new tactics and dimensions to play. But that doesn't mean what I post is perfect and should be accepted right away...far from it. It is mearly one example. You are, of course, welcome (and encouraged, I might add) to make and post your own SSD's, weapons, systems, etc. Both John Trauger and I have willingly hosted folks stuff on our sites, for those that don't have them. For now, we agree on particle cannons and some web caster stuff; that's enough to be going on with.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Mike: I seriously doubt that is going to fly.

What you are describing is basicly being able to use Aegis agasint full ships which is a major problem in my opintion. I can't recall a single unit about to do this.

The closest thing would be X-Aegis vs PFs. I can't find the auto-reject this but I have this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I've seen that there.

Being able to re-allocate fire is an extreamly powerful ability and not one I would personally introduce into the game in the manner your suggesting. X-Tech or otherwise.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 01:20 am: Edit

Daniel Thompson, Mike Raper;

Although I like the phaser-x and think it would make a good Tholian weapon, I think Daniel is probably right that the different firing stages probably wouldn't be acceptable to SVC and SPP.

Notice that I didn't use that in my argument about why I thought phaser-x arrays were superior to phaser-5s under Mike's other assumptions. Just the array drm shift, coupled with the flatter damage curve makes the weapon worth while even if the different firing stages portion of the rule is rejected.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 03:56 am: Edit

I still disagree that the PhX is a better choice over the Ph5.

Yes, the die roll shift is nice but it only applies if you fire all the phasers together. And the only place it seems to outperform the Ph5 is at longer range, and even then it's only a slight advantage.

When you get closer the Ph5 is superior in damage output and seeking weapon defense. The Ph5 does more damage per individual phaser than the PhX is able to do.

Basicly I think the situations that they Ph5 would be more useful will come up more often than the situations that the PhX will be useful. That is one of the primary reasons I favor the Ph5 for the Tholians.

Personally I can't think of

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 06:51 am: Edit

(Shrug) doubt away! We're all spitballing right now, anyway. All I can tell you is that in playtesting, the ships that used it weren't terribly unbalanced because of it. Before reading what Steve wrote in P6, I'd have thought alot of what he mentioned there would be out of bounds; systems that can be anything you want, when you want, penetrating weapons, non-x weapon resistant shields, etc. All pretty unbalancing stuff. It's how the total package is put together that makes it all playable. You like the P-5; others do, too. Alan and I (and a few others) like the P-X. Let's just move on, shall we? No one is changing anyone's mind about this.

I would be curious to read a complete rule on the web lance, Alan, when you get the chance to post it. New web tech is a big part of the Tholians, so anything we come up with ought to be looked at.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Mike's right about that.

IMHO, the best thing we can do is generate plenty of possibilities.

We're not the final authority on X2 and we shouldn't act like we are.

We're a permanent, floating BS committe chewing over ideas.

The more, the merrier.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 09:57 am: Edit

Okay, in response to the discussion going on in the SSD thread about Tholians.

Near as I can tell, there are basically three different paths that people are interested in:

1. Different improvments than every other race, essentially not giving the Tholians X2...at least not X2 as everyone else will experience it. This could be accomplished by allowing them to re-capture lost home galaxy technology, which some sources indicate was X2 level. Examples would be D-type hulls with full X1 tech, combined with X particle cannons and what have you. In other words, these X2 Tholians are just using what their ancestors did centuries before.
2. Second option would be to follow the same X2 path everyone else does; these aren't Tholians of the Will anymore, and they would find it easier and more effective to upgrade existing stuff just like everyone else would; X2 disruptors, X2 phasers, etc. They would have hull types similar to what they have for X1.
3. Third option would be sort of a mix; Tholians that abandon much of their use of heavy weapons in exchange for a unique and superior phaser technology and some undecided improvements to their web tech. These would use the X-phaser, and would have lots of smaller sized hulls, with few if any large (MC 1) hulls of any kind.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit

Mike;

I think the Neo-Tholian ships are the most advanced military technology the Tholians ever possessed in the Home Galaxy. They possessed more advanced technology in other respects but never bothered with military applications because they never felt the need to. So, no the Will never did have a 2X phaser. The best ship-mounted phaser the Will ever possessed was the standard Ph-1. But they possessed technology that would have allowed them to R&D phasers better than that if they had chosen to do so.

As you know, I prefer 3. from among your above options. To me, it just makes the most sense because it maximizes the web/phaser interaction that is the Tholians' greatest strength.

My objections to 1. can be summed up as follows, I think.

a. It requires changing at least 2 established rules; the prohibition on SC2 X-ships, and the prohibition on any race in this galaxy other than the Seltorians from using particle cannons. Granted, SVC could change those rules with the stroke of a pen (or, actually, a few taps on a keyboard) but as of today there do exist two different rules that prevent that path.

b. I'm still not convinced that X-Seltorians won't eventually be published. They may well be Conjectural, but look at all the other Conjectural things (Fed PFs, Battleships for (almost) everyone) that have been published. So I would like to see the X-particle cannon be an X-Selt only weapon. (I must be missing something, but for the life of me I have never understod why people want to give the Tholians particle cannons in this galaxy, even though there are many other directions the Tholians could go that would still keep them from being "just another disruptor race".)

c. The Tholians have great difficulty producing large hulls. This is an intrinsic part of their racial "feel". Even if it were possible for the Tholians to build SC2 X-ships, and even if such ships were more powerful 1 on 1 than SC3 X2-ships, the Tholians could never build as many DX ships as they could XCA or XCC ships due to their limitations in hull production.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:02 am: Edit

The funny thing is that if the Selts show up with X-Tech it will probably be X1 and the Tholians will be at X2 (and possibly beyond).

This Galaxy's Tholians have moved beyond their ancestors in military tech. It began with X1 and X2 is entirely new ground (although I think it should mark a return to using some of the old stuff).

I prefer Mike's #2 option but with a turn to using the PC and the occasional Photon. Early on ships might be built using the X1 Disruptor but would be refitted to use PC as soon as units were available (They don't get the Heavy Disr. or the DC, their research went into the PC but there would be a shortage of units available for the first few years).

By Chad Carew (Blackhawkckc) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:31 am: Edit

I prefer option one, I think. If we are talking about reclaiming some lost technologies, SC2 X-ships shouldn't be a problem. They did build BBs, after all, and only the klingons tried it here, without much success. Point being that if they could field several BBS, putting X-tech in a SC2 hull shouln't be much of a problem for them. I don't think smaller hulls were the norm in the THG. Sure there were more small hulls compared to thier fleet numbers but fielding BBs shows that they did, in fact, very much like big ships. Also, I like the idea of seeing them "go their own way" so to speak. They are extragalactic, really, even though they are stuck here, so it just seems natural that their technology would progress along a different line. I see them as using some of our "lowly and ineffective" technology simply because they had to for survival. Given the opportunity, they would gladly trade disrutors and such for their X-PC and improved webcasters.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:34 am: Edit

---

Quote:

That, and the fact that the Romulans and Klingons beat the absolute hell out of them in the GW, devestating their home planet in the process.

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By Chad Carew (Blackhawkckc) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:43 am: Edit

I can see your point but in all reality, FE and SFB are different games. Basing X2 SFB on how FE works against tholians isn't really a convincing argument. Now I'm not saying we can't use it for a few comparisons but I think you need more than just "FE says X". I say this with all due respect, BTW.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:46 am: Edit

Ummm, that "impossible" thing is from the SFB universe history. To quote:

---

Quote:

In a desperate panic, the Tholians allowed Gorn and Kzinti squadrons to enter their space and participate in the defense against the Klingon (and to a lesser extent Romulan) onslaught. This was the first significant deployment of Kzinti and Gorn forces outside of their own territory, and the first outside of the range of their own supply lines, and provided valuable lessons for future operations, such as REMUS.
As the year dragged on, the Klingons pulled specialist ships (maulers, carriers) off the Federation border for the attack on the Tholians. By December, the Tholians had lost virtually everything except their capital, and that had been devastated.

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By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:47 am: Edit

Tholians should have Tholian tech. To them our tech is extra-galactic.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

Damage to the Sphere in Op Nut was the second time it had been damaged. Check the time line.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Chad;

The weakness in you argument, I think, is that it is based on the ability of the Tholians to build large ships in the Home Galaxy. The Tholians have only ever been able to build PC-based hulls in this galaxy, with some ability to combine those hulls into larger ships. When the Neos arrived, the Tholians were able to combine the PC hulls in ways that had previously been impossible. But they did not gain the ability to build other hull forms.

(One caveat - the Tholians did have armed freighters and some other ships (monitors, web tenders) based on freighter hulls. I seem to recall a passage somewhere that states the first of these ships were based on freighter hulls received from the Federation. Does anyone else have a clearer memory of that, and whether the Tholians can build freighter hulls on their own?)

Daniel;

I definitely want the Tholians to have X2 tech. My objection to a BCX is more "aesthetic", I think. A very efficient XCC, comparable to, though a bit smaller and weaker (and cheaper), than other races' BCXs just seems to "fit" the Tholians better, to me. Personally, I would like something that has about the same relationship to an XBC as the Tholian CCX has to the Fed CX or Klingon DX. Though smaller and weaker, it is in the same ballpark and is at least as good a buy on a BPV basis as the larger but more expensive ships. To me, that is part of the feel of the Tholians, in this galaxy.

Tos;

I agree (and have previously said so). Where you and I disagree, I think, is on what that means exactly. To me, the particle cannon isn't Tholian tech any longer. They lost that capability and it is now Seltorian tech. The distinctly, uniquely, Tholian tech is web technology. That is what prompted my earlier idea that the Tholians at X2 level develope a "direct fire only" version of the web caster that has no web creation function at all. The most important (and rarest) Tholian X2 ships would have true web casters (and maybe snares as well, the CCX and CPX have both but the NCX - which I assume has no X2 counterpart - has web casters but no snares). The lesser Tholian ships would have the direct-fire-only "web lance" and snares. The smallest ships (counterpart to the PC) would be phaser boats with snares, but no heavy weapons. Tholian X2 ships generally would have a unique phaser system (or alternately, though I like this option less, a lot of ph-5s) and would have less heavy weapon firepower but more phaser firepower than their counterparts in other races.

By Chad Carew (Blackhawkckc) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Well I'm not saying the Tholians start building BBs. All i'm saying is if anyone could put X-tech in a SC2 ship (which they did build in our galaxy), the Tholians could. When they arrived in the Alpha sector, their ships were far superior to EY ships in our galaxy. I'm thinking that those ships were junkers compared to what they had in the THG. If in X2 they recover some lost tech, some of this might include putting X-tech on a D hull.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:48 pm: Edit

To Everyone;

I don't know SVC's thinking on this any better than any one else posting on this topic, and quite possibly not as well as some people.

But purely hypothetically, if SVC is planning on publishing X-tech Seltorians at some point and has decided that the particle cannon will remain an exclusively Seltorian weapon in this galaxy, what is your preferred next best option for Tholian X2 heavy weapons?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:56 pm: Edit

A unique Tholian Disruptor would be cool. Not sure how to accomplish that, yet, but that would be my preference.

By Chad Carew (Blackhawkckc) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:58 pm: Edit

I have no idea. I suppose if the X-PC is out I'd want to go the route of better phasers and casters.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Alan: My guess as to SVC's plans is that he neither plans to nor is planning not to do anything with X-Selts. The issue most likely isn't even on the table. When he digs into to X1R then that would be the best time to put forth the issue.

As far as next weapon in line after the PC...?

Hmmm, mauler?

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Mike & Loren: I know what the timeline says. I just haven't been able to figure out, in SFB or F&E, how it's even remotely POSSABLE. Like the Seltorians winning any major engagements agasint the Will, the Klingons devestating the sphere (which sounds weird in itself) with what they supposadly sent agasint the Tholians is another thing the history says happened but when you actually examine what is required for it to actually happen your left going "What the hell?"

The simple reality is that in SFB and F&E, the sphere is effectivly impossable to attack. F&E is the only place it's even remotely possable at all and the raw damage the Tholians do each combat round will cripple or destroy, on average, an entire Klingon battle line.

In SFB the battle is effectivly impossable since the equivlent of the 20 PDUs on the sphere would obliterate any SFB fleet you send agasint it, ships or not. It's just to diffcult to attack 120 Ph4s and 480 Ph3s hiding behind even a single layer of web. Plus the fighters (bombers really), plus Interceptors.

It's actually possable in F&E only if the Klingons litterly devote their entire fleet to the task. Which they didn't do as I understand it.