I believe (though I'm not sure) that the Tholian capitol was captured in an F&E scenario at Origins this year. I think that base assault in F&E is easier than in SFB, because F&E doesn't really capture how nasty a properly supported Tholian base (to say nothing of the Homeworld) actually is.

On the other hand, a Tholian fighter squadron in F&E is stronger than it should be, being just as good as anyone else's squadron, with a few exceptions such as the F-14/F-15 or Stinger-X.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Alan: I'd love to know what the other factors were to do that at Origins. Like if the Klingons had any ships left afterwords.

As far as fighters in SFB; with 240 fighters (if single space) flying off the sphere, does it particuarly matter how weak or powerful they are in SFB?

Thats what.... 80 Bombers?

and 120 interceptors?

If your looking at that in SFB than it doesn't matter how strong or weak the individual units are.

And yes, base assaults are much easier in F&E. Even Tholian base assaults. Tholian base assaults just mean that the attack won't be pulling out crippled ships. They will have mass numbers of destroyed ships instead.

And for the record I'm using F&E for comparision because it litterly is impossable to attack the sphere in SFB. If someone can figure out how to destroy 240 fighters, 120 INTs, 160+ small ground bases AND the Starbase + it's toys; not to mention the defending ships... all while using 14 ships I'd love to hear it.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:55 pm: Edit

F&E Discussion regarding the Origins Tholia Assault:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/7792.html?MondayJuly1220041039am#POST179588

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Better yet:

---

Quote:

Battle for the Tholian capital resulted in the following casualties:

Klingon dead
SAF
PT
C9A
2xD7C
D7
D6G
MD5
20xD5
2xAD5
F5W
11xF5L
9xF5
F5E
2xE4A

Lyran dead
DN
DNL
2xBC
2xCA
STJ

This was for 91.9 ep in salvage.

Coalition Cripples
2xD6M
STT
2xD6D
2xD7
D6
2xD5
STJ
F5G
D7V
D5U
D6V
2xFV
3CPC (Captured)

Total damage done by the Tholian’s over 15 rounds was 836 points. The Coalition did 374 points. Maulers directed every round against the Tholian fighters steadily dropping the Compot every round. It should be noted that the Lyran STT went eight rounds without shocking and then the two D6M's shocked the first time.

The Variable for the BIR average was 3.47, pretty close to the expected 3.5. The Tholian’s had an average EW rating of 5.78 and the Coalition had an average of 13. The Tholian’s were at –2 the whole time. The damage rolls for the Tholians averaged 1.43, which is very close to the expected 1.5. The Coalition rolls for damage averaged 3.8, which is slightly higher than the expected 3.5.

---

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Daniel;

I'm not even entirely sure that Tholia was taken at Origins, let alone how it happened.

Regarding fighters, I was thinking more in terms of combat away from bases/webs. In F&E, a mixed Sp-2/Sp-3 squadron flying off a carrier is 6 COMPOT. A Z-YC squadron flying off a Klingon carrier is also 6 COMPOT. In SFB, the Tholian fighters are a bit more durable but the Klingon fighters have enormously more firepower. The Klingon squadron should win easily in open space.

Flying from a base surrounded by a wedding cake defense is a different matter. The Tholian fighters can be effective in that role.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Well, Tos and Zathras have the info on the capitol assault.

But getting back to X2 for a moment, has anyone proposed an improvement on the Ph-4 for X2 bases? I looked briefly through the "X-Files" but couldn't find anything. Maybe my search was just too cursory.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Yes, there was discussion of a P8; a 50% increase in power and cost for the P4 was the starting point, IIRC. Not much was done with it, because most of the interest was around the ships, not the bases.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:21 pm: Edit

It seemed to be a cart before the horse issue to focus on the base phaser.

Tholia can be destroyed/captured. I would note that the Tholians were on their own IIRC. They gave more that they got but got enough to die. In Operation Nutcracker the Gorns and Kzinti were helping and the Fed did too although they weren't allowed to enter the Holdfast.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Intresting. I'm curious how the Klingons got that much EW without a single crippled or destroyed scout.

I didn't see the fleet listings anywhere to show what was defending the place though.

I can't remember exactly but doesn't each PDU get a small EWF for the sensor bases present in the PDU?

Was this a turn 7 attack or something? The casualties for the Klingons seem low.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Reason I am curious fo the turn of the attack is because it's progressivly harder to attack Tholia.

Yes it is expensive but possable to take Tholia if you do it at the start of the F&E game. I was refering to historicly.

Nutcracker is supposed to be around turn 32 or so and that is what I've tried running agasint the Klingons and why I can't figure out how the Klingons can win without losing basicly everything they send after the Tholians. Which would be a tacticly bad idea for them to do since the Feds would walk all over them then.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Note that history doesn't claim Tholia was taken or destroyed...just devastated. Lots of capitals were devestated in the war. Taking one, or totally wiping it out, is a different story.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Note that history doesn't claim Tholia was taken or destroyed...just devastated. Lots of capitals were devestated in the war. Taking one, or totally wiping it out, is a different story.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:15 pm: Edit

In that Origins F&E scenario the victory conditions essentially required the Coalition to assault and capture the Tholian homeworld. You can see the number of casualties they took at Origins; I can't think of anyone who thinks the sphere should be captured by a single 14-ship fleet in SFB.

My goodness, I just counted. 59 dead Coalition ships, plus the SAF. Sheesh.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:21 pm: Edit

An devestation is realative as well, especially in regards to a Dyson's Sphere. The bottom line is that it can no longer support millitary operations. It doesn't have to mean gapping holes and barren waste land inside.

F&E is that general.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit

We seem to be in agreement that we'd like the Tholians to remain unique or become even moreso.

BTW, I LIKE Mike's XBC SSD. Reminds me of a standard-tech "Tholian BCH" I created using the same idea. (I also did a Tholian "BB" by putting three CW hulls together--looked like a christmas tree)

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 06:52 pm: Edit

I'm sort of wondering how you devestate an artifical planet that likely has all the production and population on the inside.......

Someone remind me if I'm wrong but don't you need like 40 damage points to devestate Tholia in F&E? I think I need to dig out my F&E stuff again because I could have sworn you couldn't direct damage Tholian fixed units if they are inside the web....hmm....

John: It does look like an intresting ship but it's still size class 2. And the movement cost is wrong. 2 CW hulls should have a 1.33 movement cost. Not 1. It also requires new welding tech.

While not unreasonable, it does ask: "Well if they are both SC2, which would be easier to build?"

I mean if the Tholians already have a functional hull (Tarantula) why not just save production costs by basing the XBC on a hull they not only know how to build already, but that requires one less PC slot to produce.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Yes, the population is inside but a lot of important stuff exists in the shell of the sphere. There are also defenses on the outer surface of the sphere. There is an entire network of support logistics from nearby systems and around the sphere. All these things are important and can be destroyed or disrupted.

Damaging the superstructure also has effects on the inside. Damaging the Structural Integrity Field generators can cause the Tholians to turn the majority of their efforts to keeping their world together.

So, while Sphere devestation is not exactly the same as a planet devestation the result is the same: Devestation. It describes the result and not the path it took to get there.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

you devestate tholia in F&E by killing every tholian ship so that the remaining damage must be allocated against the sphere

while there were 59 ships killed, keep in mind that that essentially eliminated the tholians as a race in this galaxy (there were a couple other smaller battles at starbases). that's actually pretty cheap.

the reason no scouts were damaged is that the tholians have two choices.

1. let the damage hit ships of the coalition's choice, due to the web rules all such ships will be killed, doing full damage

2. take the damage that could kill 2 ships and instead kill a single ship of the tholians choice

the tholians chose to go for max damage at the expense of not killing specialty units.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Daniel,

If the two CW hulls were glued together, you'd be right, but Mike shaved a signifiant amount off each hull to join them together as solidly as he did. A MC of 1 is not unreasonable.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:49 pm: Edit

If the D is MC1 then the CW based BC is MC1 max (3/4 would be good but I'd want to see it a bit bigger then). The added section to the CW isn't that much and MC isn't a static thing. Mike actually made it look like two of Jeremy's DW than two CW hulls. Also by applying advanced technology and putting the two hulls into one warp bubble it fits under MC1 OK and should certainly be SC3. It is NOT that much bigger than a C and certainly smaller than a D.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 04:43 am: Edit

Last I knew, what determined movement cost was how many PC hulls you used sticking the ship together.

The reason the D has a 1 MC is because it's three MC 1/3 ships. Same with the CA, CW, and DH.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 05:47 am: Edit

Combined movement cost of the PC hulls plus an increased cost of any irregular sections added to any derived hull. (As modified by playability needs and the persuasiveness of the Tholian proponent.)

Thus, the DD and CW are considerably less efficient in terms of box count relative to movement cost than the less heavily modified PC hulls. The 2-PC hull Tholian cruiser seems to have about 1/3 more internals compared to the CW for the same movement cost. Therefore, it does not seem to unreasonable that further stretching a PC hull or trying to create a hull built around multiple stretched PCs would yield a much less efficient ship in terms of internals relative to movement cost. The ship might still prove quite impressive from a strategic standpoint. Increased numbers of almost as good large ships would provide their own benefits.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 08:19 am: Edit

The D and C both have complete PC hulls that make them up. The XBC I posted had a good bit shaved off of each, both for aesthetics and to keep both halves down to around 2/3 to 3/4 of their original size. Given that, their total box count and the amount of warp power they have available, I set the move cost at 1. Had the ship been two complete CW type hulls, move cost would be 1.3, and it would have more warp power to play with. Too big, IMO, so I shaved it down to the size shown.

As far as I know, there are no hard-and-fast rules about how to determine move cost on Tholian ships...you just have to wing it as best you can. In the latest SSJ, there are some truly bizarre Tholian ships, like the TK9 (Klingon C9 aft hull merged with a Tholian C) that have comparitevly low move costs; the TK9, for example, has a move cost of only 1.5. I know SSJ stuff isn't official by any means, but how the ships work still follows existing patterns. I mean, you aren't gonna see a battleship in SSJ with a move cost of 1, or anything.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 01:09 am: Edit

no hard and fast rule?

Every tholian ship I can remember seeing follows the same convention.

Each PC hull adds 1/3 MC. The convention is followed from the CW to te DH.

If you want to combine hulls for a XBC can I suggest you combine DD/DW hulls instead of a PC?

it would still result in a MC 1 ship but it would be larger than a CC but prolly still smaller than the apparently unacceptable D hull or odd twin CW.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 02:26 am: Edit

It's not followed for the DD.

The DD is two fractions of a PC added together, thus a proof of concept.

While the DD is a single wedge on the SSD, it's something like the front 60% of a PC wedge welded to the back 60% of PC wedge.

Thus sections of a multiple-PC hull can be shaved off to save/adjust weight.