Loren;

You're right and I apologize for the tone of my previous post. I started regretting it after posting but too late to edit it. I was trying to find some hard information on what the Tholian reform movement actually was, but posting my question the way I did was both poor manners and poor judgement.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:36 pm: Edit

That cool.

I will be doing quite a lot of heavy research and data banking into all that is Tholian. If I come accross anything I'll let you know.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit

I'm curious where the whole Reform thing is coming from as well since I can't remember if being mentioned anywhere. Not trying to say there wasn't one, just that I haven't seen it and if someone could tell me where to look it would be nice.

By Marc William Harkness (Kiyone4ever) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 03:30 pm: Edit

I'm rather new around here and my experience IS very limited, but I'm really interested in this topic and just thought I'd step into the fire. Tholian reformer forces: SH120 Scenario book #2 NDN Denouncer, NCL Guardpost, PC #357 and #371. BTW: I was wondering? I thought I saw it posted that the Dyson spheres were held together by web? If so, then how much draining could that web take before the sphere began to collapse? On the question of the strength of Tholian and Seltorian forces: What were the previous most trusted races like? If they were perhaps satillite empires, then A force would have been needed to assault and occupy them.The last time around, web may have doomed the revolt but someone still had to go in and invade. That strikes me as a job for a large force of (expendable) non-Tholians. Also, just because the Will was master of their Galaxy, does that necessarily mean that they control every cubic inch? There are probably parts of the Galaxy that weren't worth the resources to conquer, but whose people still needed to be contained...Like Mongolia was to ancient China. You build up your fortifications because you don't know when they'll come screaming out. As long as they don't come then you relax...Your loyal Seltorians are watching the gates and your Battleships are watching the Seltorians. Like I said, I don't have the experience most of you have but just a few thoughts.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 03:33 pm: Edit

I thought I saw it posted that the Dyson spheres were held together by web?

I am the source of that rumor. It's a rumor and not official stuff (yet).

If it is, it is not a combat style web but a tool. I can say no more.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 04:17 pm: Edit

I think Marc nailed it. SH120 Internal Disorder certainly looks like the source of the Tholian Reformer concept. In the case outlined by the scenario, it was a Sector Governor leading the resistance.

SH120 also lists a number of Seltorian ships in the Tholian Reformer forces.

The Designers Notes for the scenario is of particular interest: "In the long reign of the Tholian Will, there were undoubtedly times when Reformers appeared with ideas for reforming the Empire. Some of these would undoubtedly have resorted to force of arms to try and change things."

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Yup, it sure sounds like the reformer elements did have military forces after all. I've been looking for my Scenario Book #2 but can't find it. I think I have at least one copy of everything ADB and/or Task Force Games published for SFB (other than the Star Fleet Times), but a lot of the older stuff is stashed away somewhere.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 04:07 am: Edit

If thats the scenerio I think it is, I don't think it's a very good case for baseing an entire huge movement off of given that it's mercilessly crushed.

Want to make sure it's what I think it is:

It's the scenerio with a handful of ships being taken over by officers who support the base commander (ala 'Hunt for Red October' styal). The Will, being their less than tolerant selves, sends a fleet to obliterate the 'nicer, more polite' Tholians and retake the ships (if possable).

Is that about right?

I'm not exactly sure you can base an entire galaxy wide movement on something that is crushed, litterly, whenever the secret police/Galactic intel find it. It's also not the sort of thing that doesn't happen to pretty much every race in the game once in awhile.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 06:19 am: Edit

I doubt reformers are a political movement; I always read that as a term used for all the Tholian opposition movements comprised of Tholians irrespective of cause. (The term rebel being reserved for non-Tholian opponents of the Will.) The scenario gives both sides equalivent forces but the Will has 2/3 Tholian ships and 1/3 Seltorian while the Reformers reverse that percentage.

It is the special case rules that point up the core weakness of the Tholian Will. Tholian ships of the Will disengage upon being crippled. Tholian ships following the Reformer surrender once their leader is captured. Seltorians fight to the death. The will of the Will might well break as ships start taking damage and influential leaders die in combat possibly adversely impacting the Tholian ability to hold their own against organized and unified Seltorians who either win or get exterminated.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 09:15 am: Edit

I rather doubt the special case rules apply to Tholian vs. Non-Tholian battles.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:08 am: Edit

Why not? It seems rather obvious that the Tholians were brutal overlords who were complacent, if not outright careless, in their position. Their society had apparently entered the "decadent" phase long, long ago.

In the beginning, I can't see how they wouldn't treat it like just any other favored race starting a rebellion. Seen it before, will see it again. No big deal. I am sure they have even lost battles in some of those prior rebellions. It's better to save your ships for the real battle later on, rather than have them be senselessly destroyed.

Do those special rules apply to any other battle than the scenario they are included in? Absolutely not. But they can still be markers for the Tholian psyche, and how they operated at the time.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Seltorians don't have to crush the Tholian fleet. They only have to break the Tholians' will. (Pun intended.) I see no reason why, when the Tholians are confronted with unexpected and "unexplainable" losses, they don't cut and run prematurely.

Sure, they could stand and fight and probably win. But there is nothing in their history that shows they understand how to rule without overwhelming advantage. Once this advantage is lost (even if they still have an overall advantage), many might outright panic. And, once enough panic, the war is over regardless of who has the military advantage.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Mike:

Not really. The special case rules are not present in the scenerios vs the bugs or other races.

Just that one scenerio vs other Tholians.

Thats why I think it's fairly safe to ignore it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:11 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

It seems rather obvious that the Tholians were brutal overlords who were complacent, if not outright careless, in their position. Their society had apparently entered the "decadent" phase long, long ago.

---

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Loren: See? This is why discussions are nice. Someone else can always put something in a much clearer manner than I can LOL

I agree that, that is very likely how the Will treats the non-silicon races. They may actually get along with other silicon based life forms..... dunno.

The Seltorians are just the Tholians latest "Pet" race.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Good dogs gone baaaad!

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Remember that the Tholian Will existed for a lengthy period. The officials leading the government will have changed many times, bringing different attitudes with them. These attitudes reflect changes in Tholian culture.

Some may view non-Tholians as wild animals or pets. Others might feel an obligation to bring the benefits of order and civilized (Tholian) society to those unfortunate organic savages. Still others may deserve the "ruthless overlord" label.

(SH120) may reflect a time when the Tholians were particularly ruthless towards threats to their power, but not to the point of risking their own lives. We have no real idea of when the scenario happens, only that it was at some point before the Seltorian revolt.

By John Erwin Hacker (Godzillaking) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit

To Everyone on this thread:
If you need any help with the Tholian Home Galaxy or with any problem for that matter, check out my GORN BB variants in the SCARY SHIPS thread and I will be more than happey to help. By the way, I don't ask for much, just a couple of planets (HeHeHeHeHe, Laugh, Laugh).
Thanks, John

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 12:57 am: Edit

I still think Loren's example is the best explination for SH120.

Non-Tholian (or possably expanded to non-silicoid) races are deemed to be of less value than even rebel Tholians. As such they are treated with considerably less restraint than the rebels.

Think of what police do with human criminals here. They try and capture first and use lethal force second (don't start on correcting that; I know it's more complicated than that).

The other races are treated, at best, as pets.

Remember that even in the holdfast, in this galaxy, the Tholians use slave/prisoner labor. I seriously doubt that is a change from how they opperated in the THG.

Not to sound to corney, but think of how humans were treated in the 'Planet of the Apes'.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Some may view non-Tholians as wild animals or pets. Others might feel an obligation to bring the benefits of order and civilized (Tholian) society to those unfortunate organic savages. Still others may deserve the "ruthless overlord" label.

In a galaxy wide empire there will be variations of attitude. Look to ourselves as models when dealing with animals or even plants to a lesser degree. We range from those who want to give animals practically more rights than humans to those who sink pellets in helpless little ones for sport.

I don't see Tholians as killing for sport. Frankly it's not worth the effort. Recently I saw an episode of Croc Hunter. Steve Irwin was at a grain factory where they had been over run by mice. There was more that a 1/2 million mice ruining everything. He was scooping them up in piles and they would pop out of his hands like pop corn; it was insane. The ONLY thing to do was to spray them from a plain and wipe them all out. Now Steve is a really companionate guy when it comes to doing animals harm but he didn't shed a single tear for the cute little guys because he KNEW it was the right thing to do for the betterment of all life. I doubt a single mouse would agree though. To them (had they had the sentience to know the dif) it was the reign of the apocalypse.

Tholians as brutal overlords? Perhaps they would appear that way IF you have compassion for the FEELINGS of the subjects. I'm sure that the Tholians that give the orders from far away don't think of themselves a brutal but as simply doing a job. But on occasion there are perhaps Tholians that are implementing the orders and hear the cries of the victims that begin to have issues with conscience.

Imagine a young Tholian Ensign monitoring the comm. channels during a campaign to eliminate an unruly race. He listens dis-compassionately to their unanswered calls for help and screams of horror.

Forty years later that same Tholian is a Captain racing to assist a Tholian base under attack. He hears those same calls for help and screams of horror and he desperately tries to answer them. He would surely brutally wipe out the enemy of the moment but later in reflection he might also have doubts about Tholian policy and attitudes towards others.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 08:58 am: Edit

One question relating to the possible destruction of the Dyson Spheres in the THG:

COuld it not be possible that the Seltorians or some other race in the THG had the means to lanch a suicide ship into the star within the Sphere, causing it to go nova? Instead of having a drawn-out conflict to try and pummel the surfce of the gigantic spheres, work on a nova weapon - maybe loading a ship with antimatter and try to destabilize the star at some crucial point, or cook up some means of imbalancing the star - and watch the Tholian capitals vanish in the blink of a eye?

The Seltorian plan could have been to load up freighters with this nova weapon, sail through the security entrance to each Sphere and sail right into the corona, and next thing you know the heart of the Will is gone!

Maybe these weapons are too dangerous to ship across the intergalactic void from the THG to the Milky Way, so the Holdfast need not worry about Tholia turning into a nebula, but maybe Tholia was the last Sphere to survive the attack, akin to how the Galactica was the only Battlestar not to get stomped by the Cylons (well, in the new series anyway)

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 04:29 pm: Edit

One thing I've always wondered about was, were the Dyson sphere's actually originally designed to move? IF so why? What would be gained from moving a star and its accompanying Dyson sphere, if not, then when did they first start working on moving a Dyson sphere, and was the holdfast the only one so equipped. If it wasn't the only one, why didn’t a number of Sphere’s leave the Tholian home galaxy for greener pastures?

As I can’t imagine that a race under dire threat is going to be spend the research time and energy trying to figure out how to move a Dyson sphere, I have to assume it had the capability prior to the Seltorian revolt, either that or the revolt lasted a long, long time.

If the Dyson sphere was mobile prior to the revolt, why would you need to move a provincial capital, especial with the ability to traverse inter-galactic space, unless you were going to colonize/invade another galaxy? If the Tholians were gearing up for an Andromedan type invasion, maybe the Tholians were refitting a large number of ships to be capable of the intergalactic travel, and while these ships were tied up and before the Tholians were able to spread to another galaxy the Seletorians struck.

In This way a Dyson sphere already upgraded to make the journey to another galaxy saw the Tholian Will crumbling and decide to make a fresh start.

This would provide a reason for the Dyson to move, why the Tholians were caught off guard, and didn’t respond quick enough, because a large number of ships in dry dock being upgraded.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 04:51 pm: Edit

The Tholian Will did control at least one satellite galaxy adjacent to their Home Galaxy. Maybe the Tholians built moveable Dyson Spheres to control new regions rather than having to build in regions still with unrest and giving the remainder of opposition a defined target.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 05:16 pm: Edit

To explain it would be to reveil too much. I'm sorry I can't go into detail. The spheres can be moved but do not move as a normal thing.

Of course my explainations aren't official yet.

R. Wells: Can you point to the reference regarding control of one satellite galaxy? This fit's my work but I'd like to read the reference specifically.

By Marc William Harkness (Kiyone4ever) on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Loren Knight: I think I have that reference here. In module C-3 page 32 The Seltorian Tribunal, paragraph 2:"The Seltorian Tribunal tracked most of the escaped Tholians to a small satillite galaxy near the original home. The bulk of the original Seltorian fleet quickly assembled for the campaign and smashed the resurgent Tholians before they could assemble a counter-revolutionary strike force. This campaign gave the tribunal more credibility since it was clear that at least one group of escaped Tholians had tried to return to power. Several groups were known to have escaped to (or at least toward) other nearby galaxies, and the Tribunal resolved to hunt them down.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Thanks and of course I recall that now. And it fits perfectly.