wrong topic--SVC

By Matt Shaw (Carne68) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 04:28 am: Edit

VLS drone rack.

Holds 6 spaces of drones.

Can fire all six in a single impulse.

Cannot be reloaded during a scenario, only between scenarios.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 12:06 pm: Edit

Too "all or nothing" for my like. Its only use is to overwhelm drone defenses in concert with other drone launch.

The result is see-saw battles where drone volume, rather than battle tactics carry or lose the day.

Did I crush him with drones?: W
No?: L

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Matt,

I sorta like the idea because it kind of gives that "Macross" feel to it.

It sounds like you want the drones to be attached to the ship by a rail system or mech-"drone" link system. Either way I think that the cost should be less than that of a 'B' drone rack.

However, I have to agree with John. Even though you could launch any amount of drones from multiple VLSs in a impulse/turn, you will still run out of drones too quickly. Then you would be left without a weapon system for longer-turn engagements.

B^)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Proposal needs more detail.

Are the drones all launched against a single target, or must they attack different targets, like the F-torps in a plasma-shotgun?

If they attack different targets, does the owning player choose which drones go after which targets, or is it randomly determined?

Does the "6 spaces" allow for Type-VI "dogfight drones"? If it does, this becomes a devastating "one-shot" defensive weapon for breaking up enemy drone strikes since it could launch 12 Type-VIs against the enemy drone mass in a single impulse.

If it can launch 12 Type-VIs at once and they can all be targeted at the same enemy, this has major implications for cloak and weasel tactics.

YIS?

Do these replace "normal" drone racks on a 1-for-1 basis? Is there any limit, other than total number of drone racks, to how many VLS a ship can carry? If not, a Kzinti frigate could lauch 24 Type-I drones in a single turn. Drone control limits is an issue of course. But against a short range target it could fire a VLS, wait for the drones to hit or be weaseled/shot down/tractored/etc., fire the second VLS after the drone control channels cleared, repeat twice more in a single turn. Potentially very powerful (even more so with double drone control or MRS or Special Sensors to increase drone control).

As I said, this needs to be worked out in a lot more detail.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Such a device would not be developed because any enemy would just turn and out run them then come back when they were gone. This is an existing issue for squadrons that can put too many drones on a board. You could say that the enemy must fight in some way in a scenario but it would be useless in an S8 patrol scenario unless you were to force a closed map.

But you still couldn't justify it historically. You can't force closed map or "must fight" on history in order to justify the creation of a weapon system.

By Matt Shaw (Carne68) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 03:03 pm: Edit

I proposed this earlier.

Type V (VLS) drone rack. -think 8 cell VLS pack on an Aegis destroyer.

Each type V rack holds 6 spaces of drones and can launch them all in a single impulse, subject of course to the ability to control them.

Cannot be reloaded during a scenario.

Subject to chain reaction. Any loaded V rack that is destroyed will cause 1 point of damage to any adjacent drone rack and one other internal.


Alan Trevor (Thyrm): Are the drones all launched against a single target, or must they attack different targets, like the F-torps in a plasma-shotgun?

Drones are treated the same as those launched from any other type of rack.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): If they attack different targets, does the owning player choose which drones go after which targets, or is it randomly determined?

Determined per normal seeking weapons rules. This is not a scatter pack, just a drone rack with a very high ROF.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): Does the "6 spaces" allow for Type-VI "dogfight drones"? If it does, this becomes a devastating "one-shot" defensive weapon for breaking up enemy drone strikes since it could launch 12 Type-VIs against the enemy drone mass in a single impulse.

Okay, but that also is a rack that is unable to carry 1 or 2 space drones to fire against ships.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): If it can launch 12 Type-VIs at once and they can all be targeted at the same enemy, this has major implications for cloak and weasel tactics.

Can the drones from 2 E racks be targeted on the same enemy unit?

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): YIS?

I had thought of this as a late X1 or X2 weapon. so call it Y195 or so. Its a Kzinti invention but other drone using races could have it a year or two later.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): Do these replace "normal" drone racks on a 1-for-1 basis?

Yes.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): Is there any limit, other than total number of drone racks, to how many VLS a ship can carry?

I had no limit in mind, but if a ship carries insufficient phasers or disruptors it would be vulnerable once its racks were empty.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): If not, a Kzinti frigate could lauch 24 Type-I drones in a single turn. Drone control limits is an issue of course.

Okay. Then what? All 4 racks are empty and cannot be reloaded and you are left flying a very undergunned ship.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): But against a short range target it could fire a VLS, wait for the drones to hit or be weaseled/shot down/tractored/etc., fire the second VLS after the drone control channels cleared, repeat twice more in a single turn.

Okay.

Alan Trevor (Thyrm): Potentially very powerful (even more so with double drone control or MRS or Special Sensors to increase drone control).

By Matt Shaw (Carne68) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 03:06 pm: Edit

SVC is always saying that X ships made fighters/PFs obsolete. Here is a good reason why.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Perhaps this already exists.

Its called a drone drogue.

I can see SVC/ SPP saying that mounting one of these on the hull would be problematic as the existing canon says the drone launchers have some kind of Roll/ Ritch/ Yaw thingy (tm). Look at the EY launchers. Some are directional.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 05:08 pm: Edit

I recommend taking a look at the Frax Missile Racks in Module C4. Not a "launch all at once" rack, but pretty dang close.

Just a real world Navy note: Even though any missile can be fired from a VLS in any order, there is a small seperation in time between shots. Can you imagine 60+ of these launching at the exact same instant? My guess is if the combined missile exhausts didn't blow the end of the ship off, odds are something would go "bump" shortly after launch, resulting in a Very Bad Day^TM. If an impulse in SFB happens in a few seconds, it might be more reasonable have any SFB "VLS" behave the same way (like the Frax missile rack does - one missile per impulse).

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Easy to playtest, just allow a drone using opponent to swap drone racks. I can say my own encounters with Frax Missile units have generally not gone well.

By Dave Bank (Dirk) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 02:41 pm: Edit

"Pufferfish" Mine-Dropping Drone

NOTE: I know that "Drones with mine warheads (damage everything in one, or seven, hexes)" are on the auto-reject list - I don't think this proposal is the same.

The Pufferfish is a MW variant - it puts the necessary hardware on a drone to allow it to arm & drop a T-bomb. The launching ship draws a T-bomb (NSM not allowed) from the T-bombs it has on board (the T-bomb is not included with the Pufferfish hardware, nor does having a Pufferfish allow the unit to exceed the limits of M3.13).

The drone is launched ballistically (the launching ship may, of course, provide guidance so as to deceive). After travelling a number of hexes (how many is recorded in writing at launch) the T-bomb is dropped. When the drone moves 2 hexes away, the T-bomb arms. The T-bomb thereafter functions as if it had been rolled out a shuttle bay hatch. The drone continues on its ballistic course until its endurance expires or it reaches the target hex (which needs to be 2 or more hexes away from where it drops the mine).

Damage to the drone will not cause early release. If the drone is destroyed in transit (before it has dropped the T-bomb), then the T-bomb is also destroyed (does not detonate).

The T-bomb will not detonate for any reason before it is dropped by the drone and the drone moves 2 hexes away.

If the T-bomb is set to respond to a specific Size Class, then this must be done before it is put on the drone and launched (recorded in writing).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Dave,

I don't think that works because of the sizes. ANNEX #7K gives the number of "Cargo Space Points" that various items take up. This is probably a good first order approximation to their physical size. (It probably doesn't correlate perfectly to size because odd shapes may take up more room in the cargo hold than "compact" shapes that fit together efficiently, and because the "packaging" for some items may be more extensive than others.) According to that annex, a one-space drone takes up one cargo space and a two-space drone takes up (not surprisingly) two spaces. A small mine also takes up two spaces. So to a good approximation, that small mine is larger than a standard drone and about the same size as a two-space. The only way I could see this working is if the pufferfish is based on a (four-space) Type-H drone.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 03:33 pm: Edit

I think with a drone delivered mine the enemy would have lock-on to the mine.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Perhaps this drone is a "H" only drone?

Alternately, the drone is size 2 but does not use one of your Tbombs. Instead it drops a mine that does radius zero damage. Perhaps 3 points of damage?

By Dave Bank (Dirk) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 08:54 pm: Edit

@AT: Yes, I am aware of the space required in Cargo for a T-bomb. But there is a flaw in your logic.

First, the 2.5 spaces for the T-bomb. Is that the actual size of the armed device ready for deployment, or is that the size of the stored device in it's safety cradle with associated arming and testing gear (i.e. in a pretty box and wrapped with a bow)?

Second, don't some of the MW drone configurations deploy more than 1 space of sub-munitions from a 1-space drone or 2 spaces from a 2-space drone? I think such is the case.

The Starfish drone (FD15.0) deploys 3 ADDs (1.5 spaces of Cargo according to Annex 7K) when mounted on a 1-space drone frame, and 5 ADDs (2.5 spaces of Cargo) when mounted on a 2-space drone.

So... logically... if a T-bomb consumes 2.5 Cargo spaces, then why would it require a 4-space drone? A 2-space Starfish drone can deploy 5 ADDs, which take the same Cargo space.

By Dave Bank (Dirk) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 09:03 pm: Edit

@LK: I'm interested in your reasoning. I am, of course, assuming that M2.6 is in use.

Under M2.1, M2.6 and M3.2, only mines/T-bombs placed via Transporter are automatically detected. When a ship drops a mine, if M2.6 is operative, it is not announced or noted on the map.

Why should a drone dropping a T-bomb be any different? All it's doing is releasing the T-bomb from the drone frame and going on its way.

The enemy has a lock-on to the drone, sure. It has that big engine on one end, putting out a lot of energy and making a lot of electronic noise. The mine is a quiet bit of flotsam.

By Dave Bank (Dirk) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 09:09 pm: Edit

@MCG:As I pointed out, a 2-space Starfish can deliver sub-munitions that themselves take 2.5 Cargo spaces. Given F15.12, I think it's entirely possible for a regular T-bomb to hitch a ride on a 2-space drone.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 09:54 pm: Edit

You can already do this with a Mine-Laying Shuttle (R1.F6) with remote control being installed (J15.0). And it can do it with large mines. So you're trying to replicate something that the game already allows.

By Dave Bank (Dirk) on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 08:00 pm: Edit

@Starsabre: Hmmm... by that logic, why do we need drones at all? Just use suicide shuttles.

Not to mention that MLS' aren't available to your average ship, and that what I'm proposing doesn't require AFC and a control channel, whereas what you suggest is equivalent requires both.