I do not even want to think about determining an ESG ram in 3D.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:24 am: Edit

Bill, it's actually not bad. the ESG has a range that it affects, it's trivial to find the range between ships, so when you get close enough to matter you just check

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 11:07 am: Edit

Yeah, but you could use a ballon as a play aide.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 11:33 am: Edit

Have you ever tried to figure out esg rams in 2D? That is one of the most misunderstood rules (other than midcourse speed changes) in the game. It is easy to tell if it hits, it is not as easy to determine where.

By Adam James Villatorio (Merlinfmct87) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 01:37 pm: Edit

Never struck me as hard...

Well, figuring out what facing it hit. Then the other guy tells me "40 damage" and I did feel pretty struck, but that's another matter.

Merlin

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 06:43 pm: Edit

The ESG I can define as being a radius around a point, and the way that movement and shields interact, the split shield boundary conditions go away.

The one I have no clue on how to handle is the Tholian Web, which goes from a linear item to an area based item.

How high up does a cast web extend? Do we go from "web hexes" to "Web area" and if so, how does that convert to web strength points.

How do you make a Tholian Buzz Saw setup in 3-D?

Quite honestly, I'm ignoring the Web problem for now, and getting other things from "OK, I think this will work" to "OK, it should work like this, and here's a testable rule."

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Globular web is easy as it is just a sphere. Liner web can be handled in a couple ways I'd think.

1) For straight free standing web say it is one half hex up and down (round up) for each hex it is wide. So a one hex web occupies the hex above it and below it. As the web extends out ward you end up with a diamond shape. A six hex web would be three hexes above and three above and one each below and above at the ends.

2) For webs at anchors the height remains consistant (height = width).

3) It is possible to create a buzz saw by creating incomplete and overlapping spheres but how to define that for a board game? I don't think there is a simple solution for that at all.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

I think the web will become an area and will require changes to the web strangth and web laying costs to reflect the added 'chunks' that need to be layed.

I don't think the buzz saw works in 3D, it's an artifact of 2D play

I like Loren's free standing web, but I don't know if it should be a diamond or a circle.

making achored web the same height as width makes for some interesting issues as the web is being extended between a ship and another anchor

manuvering a ship to create a globular web is also a mindbending thing to contemplate

web is definantly a messy issue.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Could just say it draws itself onto a sphere once the two ends are completed.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 08:37 pm: Edit

any ideas for the web strength calculations?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Just by length I'd guess. It seems to get you more web but it really is a little less effective in 3D so it balances.


I'm not sure the buzz saw is purely an artifact of 2D. Consider two 2/3 orbs one smaller than the other. Place the open side to eachother and you have a situation where you can enter via a specific path but from a distance you see through web from any direction. Now place three one inside the other half circles with the zero degree point facing out in three different directions. Not exacly the buzz saw but pretty close.

Mining the buzz saw becomes another difficulty. In 2D a mine covers an entry hex completely but in my solution it would take multiple mines.

A solution to that would be a mine-string. Several detectors strung together. The one that triggers is where an exploding shell is sent (via transportation and each detactor is a transport reciever). You can place the string out in any direction. So a regular mine would have a tubular detection area. So one big bomb in the middle with a self transportation mechanism. Sends out multiple detectors in two directions (and two opposing directoins). Bomb explodes where ever a trigger is first set off.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 09:26 pm: Edit

It would be very anti-3D but web could be considered infinitely high for game purposes.

I freely admit that is an unstatisfying solutionto say the least.

Web would need substantial height or is isn't a serious barrier.

Lacking the infinite height kludge, the web rules would have to be extended or rebuilt.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 10:59 pm: Edit

I don't think that is needed. As long as the main web line can be of any level then the enemy ships have to move the same amount of distance to get around it. And Spherical web doesn't need infinate height either.

Web does not have to play exactly the same as in SFB. Adding the Third dimention to play will change all sorts of dynamics so web can be dynamically different. As long as you can use it to the same general effect (through different implementation). To make SFB3D fit the Universe the outcome needs only be the same at the F&E level.

That is: If a game is easilly won because of web in 2D then it should be easilly won in the same match up of ships in 3D even if you end up using the web in different ways.

By Adam James Villatorio (Merlinfmct87) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 12:51 am: Edit

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Quote:

To make SFB3D fit the Universe the outcome needs only be the same at the F&E level.

That is: If a game is easilly won because of web in 2D then it should be easilly won in the same match up of ships in 3D even if you end up using the web in different ways.

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By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:27 am: Edit

mines will need to be cheaper as they are easier to avoid and you need to cover a larger area.

t-bombs will be just as effective when beamed out, but less effective when used as low-powered mines

currently globular web is not allowed to have any openings.

also the key thing about a buzz saw was that since all the web was adjacent to the base the base could power it all. the interleaved spheres don't have this advantage

By Adam James Villatorio (Merlinfmct87) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:44 am: Edit

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Quote:

mines will need to be cheaper as they are easier to avoid and you need to cover a larger area.

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Quote:

t-bombs will be just as effective when beamed out, but less effective when used as low-powered mines

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By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 03:14 am: Edit

when I say t-bombs would be less effective when not beamed directly to their target is that at that point it's less likly that a ship will stumble across them

if you beam the bomb out right next to it's target this just doesn't matter

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 12:30 pm: Edit

In a 3-D envronment, web becomes an obstacle rather than a barrier. The diference is important. A Tholian Wedding Cake or buzzsaw falls apart as a defense if the Klinks can fly over it. The ability of a tholian to defend is weakened if the web isn't a barrier.

Cast web isn't a big deal. It can be 3D-ized into a shield shape, so a 5-hex cast web is a 5-hex diameter circle.

The trick is figuring out web that is laid.

I'm not sure what would allow Tholians to build defenses in good speed.

Not sure whether web should be assigned a definite height, say 3 hexes high or something.

Alternately web could be inflatable to some degree, where expending power extends a web's height.

Then there's the question of web laid at an angle to the horizontal...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 01:36 pm: Edit

The wedding cake is simply three spheres so it's use remains the same.

The buzz saw is affected, I agree. Although it has always been just an obsticle and not a barrier.

Straight web (caste web too) has always been only an obsticle.

The buzz saw could be done with two more webs at the top and bottom (inverted spheres).

SO, take my tri-angle straight web design and stretch out the buzz saw blades. If you look at it from the side you then get a bowl shape at the Station. Here you connect a two interlocking semi-sphere with their base at the Station to protect the top. That's seven webs total. It's hard to imagin but perhaps I can come up with an illustration later.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 01:46 pm: Edit

One of the tricks that my 3-D engine uses is that only things that players move get put on the map - it takes seeking weapons, applies trigononetry to them, and just updates the range to the target every impulse.

It's slower for one stack of drones, faster (probably for multiple launches in multiple directions.

It's easier to define web as "So far from unit X" where unit X is something controlled by another player. Keeping track of "OK, there are 5 hexes of web that are 3 hexes tall from this hex to this hex, except it's angled off at a 30 degree angle from the vertical in direction A..." gets ugly.

Personally, I'm not gonna worry about it just yet. See if other things break before I get to web.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:09 pm: Edit

In any case I've never felt the buzz saw was that great anyway. You can brick a ship and sacrafic it into the space between. This may well cause lass damage to the fleet. You can then approach the base. Against a Starbase this is really hard because it's hard in open space anyway but against a BATTS or BS it's doable. The mauler is perfect for the Buzz saw attack, especially the mixed weapons types.

So if the Buzz saw is untenable in 3D it's not that great of a loss.

One way to do web power costs in 3D is to reduce the per hex cost but require payment for all hexes. So if someone wanted to lay a single row of hexes for really cheep they can but the enemy will just hop over it (or under it).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Having never seen Ken's game in action (other than stealing his chocolate when he thought I was paying attention) I have this question.

Kenspace is basically just stacks of cubes, right?

Square areas with levels. Stacks of cubes. right?

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 02:59 pm: Edit

The difficulty in attacking a buzzsaw with a clearing ship (especially a mauler), is that the ships needs to circle the base multiple times. During those many passes you will not be able to keep the same shield to the base and the fleet that is ignoring the web at the same time.

Also if a single ship is cruising through to clear the start of the buzzsaw the tholian fleet could enter the web and fire overloads at range 1 to the leading ships and mission kill it, and then sink back under the web. This first leading ship is not likely to have overloads, and if the rest of the fleet is not close enough to support will not do significant damage to the Tholian fleet with 1 ships phasers (the maulers cruddy arcs will make this easy). The fleet can then just circle back and fire some phasers at longer range at the main fleet to continue to whittle it down. After a fleet starts coming down a single channel the 3rd wall can be dropped as it can not be reached by the attacking fleet any more (a 1 strength web which can block los for any attacking ship which buries itself in the initial web).

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 03:00 pm: Edit

stacks of hexes not stacks of cubes

horizontaly it's hexes, verticly it's altitude

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 03:30 pm: Edit

How is he using hexes with only four shields? You can't have one shield cover two arcs, and adding a 7th and 8th shield makes the existing SSDs unusable and the whole concept unworkable. Sorry to have bothered you.