Loren,

Cast web is just an obstacle, because you can eventually maneuver around it. When you add up and down you make straight web MUCH easier to maneuver around and web must adapt to suit or be considered useless, which guts the racial flavor of the Tholians.

The real problem if globular web, especially trying to erect reasonably good web defenses in the middle of a scenario.

How do you construct globular web in 3D without taking excessive amounts of time (and weblaying ship orbits around the unit to be defended)?

The best way I can think of is to allow the web to expand with the application of additional power. The lateral expansion would itself be subject to the normal weblaying rules, which would allow a web to extend as a more-or-less sheet (perhaps some wrinkles in it) and bend to form a sphere. The weblaying ships might need a weblaying orbit theough two of the three axes then apply power to fill in the sphere.

By Kerry Drake (Kedrake) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 04:22 pm: Edit

SVC

There is a lookup chart, if you are more X then Y away from the target it tells you wich shield you hit. In really to close to call cases, the attacker picks where the shot goes.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 04:56 pm: Edit

SVC, Ken's game breaks firing arcs (and therfor shields) into roughly 30 degree by 30 degree segments with a total of 50 firing windows total. when you fire at a ship you 'look' from the target ship to the firing ship and see which of these windows the incoming fire is coming through and then look and see which shield covers that (it sounds complex, but the great thing about Ken's game system is that he has managed to reduce this from something that only math geniuses can play to something that only requires grade school math)

for the firing windows, picture a globe around the ship split into 7 horizontal slices (with the border of each slice being 30 degrees around the circle from the last border. each layer is then split into a number of evenly spaced sections horizontaly

viewed from the side it looks something like

								ANGLE
			5					+75 to +90
	5		5		5			+45 to +75
6	6	1	1	1	2	2		+15 to +45
6	6	1	0	1	2	2		-15 to +15
6	6	1	1	1	2	2		-15 to -45
	3		3		3			-45 to -75
			3					-75 to -90

the numbers in the diagram above are what shield would be affected by fire comeing in through that facing (with the exception of the 0 dead center in the nose that is part of shield $1)

so the top shield (the old #5) covers any fire that comes in through the top two layers (basicly everything from an angle of 45 degrees and up)

the edges of the three middle layers are half on this hemisphere and half on the back side of the diagram

I hope this helps

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 05:35 pm: Edit

SVC: I can give you the math behind it, or I can explain the machanics.

I suspect you want the mechanics.

Picture your ship in the hex it's in, level with the map.

Now, put that ship in a bubble that just fits into the hex.

Around the equator of that bubble are 12 windows -- all colored amber. They extend from -15 degrees to +15 degrees, but we just call it the 0 ring.

Above and below that, there are two additional rings of 12 windows each, colored blue, that are centered on +/- 30 degrees.

Above and below that, we have two rings of green windows with 6 windows each, centered on +/- 60 degrees.

And then we have the top and bottom "poles" centered on 90 degrees, colored purple.

Shifting to the bubble frame of reference, if your nose is level, facing direction A, that means your stern is level facing D. It means your left side is facing the corner between E and F, and your right side is facing the corner between B and C. Top is facing through the "top pole", bottom is facing through the "bottom pole".

Each of these directions corresponds to a window in that bubble.

We'll list these as:

A (nose)
B/C (right)
D (stern)
E/F (left)
+++ (top)
--- (bottom)

(This is much easier to show than to describe in text).

A shield arc is defined not as a hex side, but as one of these windows, plus all the adjacent windows. Which means it's a 90 degree by 90 degree section of the surface of the sphere.

Mapping it /back/ to the frame of reference that SFB uses, for a ship facing direction A:

Shield 3 is the top shield.

Shield 5 is the bottom shield.

Shield 1 is the hex side the ship is facing, plus about 15 degrees past each hex corner. Shield 4 is the hex side the stern is facing, plus 15 degrees to either side of the hex corner.

Shield 2 is the hex corner to the right, bounded between the extra bits taken out by shield 4 and shield 1, shield 6 is the corresponding shield on the right.

Again, when you shift to the bubble-in-hex frame of reference, this just snaps into place.

As an added benefit, since weapon arcs and shield boundaries are defined in 30 degree increments, nearly every common SFB split shield resolution goes away.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Ken said: "SVC: I can give you the math behind it, or I can explain the machanics."

SVC replied: Only if you want to die.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 10:36 pm: Edit

Ken, I'd bet that if you showed someone that in person, it'd take about ten second to make it all clear ... but I had to re-re-read that twice and am still not sure I can visulize it the way you do. (Then again, I had a massive headache for a few hours now.)


Garth L. Getgen

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 10:49 pm: Edit

An animated Flash illustration would do the trick real quick!

I got it but only because I'd tried to read David Langs explaination. I sort of got that but then Kens popst cinched. I am now sure that I might understand it.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:20 am: Edit

Here's a picture:

http://www.adastragames.com/downloads/SFB/3-DSFB-Shields.gif

The perspective is looking down at the hex from above. Inside the hex is a sphere, which you're looking at the top of.

The triangle is the nose of the ship, semi circle is the tail. The < and > are left and right.

Star is the top of the ship, anchor is the bottom -- the anchor is circled to show that it's in the bottom of the sphere.

Shields 1, 2, 4 and 6 in this diagram include blue windows both above and below the amber rings.

All we care about is this:

1) What window is the damage coming in through?

2) What marker is that window closest to? Nose, port, starboard, aft, top or bottom? That determines which shield is hit.

This is handled automatically by the bearing solution.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Ken, make more sense now. Have a front view, too?? Or a view at some weird angle??

Does you system allow a ship to roll over on its side or up-side-down??


Garth L. Getgen

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Garth

Ken's system works with ships rolling and spinning to any angle, basicly you put yourself in the positin and attitude of the target ship and look out into space to see what direction you see the attacker in. the mechanics of doing so are actually much easier then it sounds like they would need to be

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Garth: All bearings are reciprocal.

If I'm the attacker and see you in A, you as the defender see me in D.

If I see you in A(blue-up), you'll see me in D(blue-down)

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 04:44 pm: Edit

The clever part is how you shoot a bearing.

First, see if you see the target through the corner or hex side -- that determines which "orange slice" of the sphere you see the target in.

Second, count out the distance in hexes, and the difference in altitude.

If the difference in altitude is less than the distance in the horizontal, the target is in the blue or amber ring.

If the difference in altitude is greater than the difference in horizontal, the target is in the green or purple.

Now, we need to narrow it further down.

Multiply the lesser of those two distances by 4 and compare it to the larger distance.

If the lesser*4 is greater than the larger, the target will be in the blue or green ring (whichever one is appropriate based on the step above). If the lesser*4 is still less than the larger, the target will be in the purple or amber ring.

This sounds complex, but it becomes something you do in your head after doing it 4 to 5 times.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Ken,

That works for absolute bearing (as the compass shows) but not for relative bearing (as viewed from the ship). In your example, "If I see you in A(blue-up), you'll see me in D(blue-down)", that assumes we're both flying straight and level, both heading "north". But if I spin around 180 and head "south", I now see you in "A(blue-down)" ... no????

Or am I totally missing something???


Garth L. Getgen

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Garth, you're missing something.

Your orientation is independant of absolute bearing.

Those little orientation markers I drew in the illustration swivel to match the current facing of your ship. Imagine your ship is swiveling inside that ball, and you're looking out through the ball at the rest of the world. (You're a hamster in a hamster ball.)

If I'm in hex 0105, and you're in hex 0101, I see you in direction A, you see me in direction D, regardless of our orientation. It doesn't matter if you're facing in A, or D, you'll still see me in direction D. The only thing that changes is whether you see me through your #1 or #4 shield.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 12:11 am: Edit

re: 3D Web

Refering back to the Original Source, the 3D web was made up of 2D strands wrapped around like a ball of string. I'm not sure how to do that in SFB.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 12:22 am: Edit

John
Just think of it as a solid sphere. Perhaps using some Connetix building toys to make a geodesic sphere?
regards
Stacy

By Adam James Villatorio (Merlinfmct87) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 02:37 am: Edit

We should also balance this out with the new TM style used in 3-D SFB. Is a web going to be too hard/easy to dodge?

Merlin

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 03:22 am: Edit

Merlin
You've stumbled over a good point. It's easy to do a globular web wedding cake in 3D (Concentric spheres).

Linear web though...

How about linear cast web be treat as a wall in the shape of a circle? The length of the linear web represents the diameter of the circle.
regards
Stacy

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 10:33 am: Edit

I guess I didn't make myself clear. SFB ships always have laid web as a strand coming out the back. The only Tholians we've actually seen laying web, way back in TOS did the same thing (go figure). Instead of worrying about how you lay a spherical sheet of webbing in game terms, it might be more interesting to figure out how a ship wraps the linear web into a ball. Certainly, a new rule involving how close strands of web can be laid would be needed (they cross). I'm not sure what else would be needed.

>> How about linear cast web be treat as a wall in the shape of a circle?
So it would be sort of like Spiderman (in hte comics - I haven't seen the movies). He shoots a stream of web fluid that spreads out into a sheet when it hits.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 07:52 pm: Edit

John, you have no idea how interesting it is to fly a ship in a circle in this game.

now you have to do it repeatedly in 3D?????

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 09:55 pm: Edit

David, flying a ship in a circle in 3-D SFB is considerably less challenging than doing it in vector space.

Trying to put Tholian webs in AV:T would make someone's head explode even more than it does in 3-D SFB.

Like I said, I'm currently content to leave web as a "We'll look at that later..." routine.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 10:28 pm: Edit

Honestly you guys are making the web much more difficult than it needs to be.

Lay it exactly the way you would in 2 D. Except it creates a sphere. Don't even TRY to duplicate the way the way the Tholians did in the Tholian Web. There's absolutely no benefit to doing it that way beyond making unnecessarily difficult.

Have the laying ship fly a circle in 2 D. I would reccomend making it parallel to the ecliptic each "hex" laid creates that section of the sphere.

The laying of the web need be no more complicated than standard SFB-and should not be. The tactics of assault will be somewhat different-but only because the the firing arcs of the ships and bases will be different.

Stop thinking so hard you are scaring off the easy answer.
regards
Stacy

PS I took a crack at 3D SFB with SVC's permission back in the 80's. Although my method would have used the miniatures.
Since I was the Tholian commander at the time the first thing I studied was web and found that treating the mechanics of laying it the same as 2D was the simple and obvious answer. Anything else adds needless complication for no obvious advantage.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 10:33 pm: Edit

John
Yes exactly like Spider Man.

(To the tune of Spider Man)

Tholian, Tholian
Sing a song of Tholian
Spins a web any size
catches ships any size
Hey there.There goes a Tholian

In the chill of space
At the scene we design
Like a streak of light
They arrive just in time
Hey there.There goes a Tholian!

(Apologies to Stan Lee still the coolest dude on Earth)

regards;)
Stacy

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 10:35 pm: Edit

PS on globular web

Think of each "hex" laid like a segment of an Orange. Until you end up with a whole orange.

regards
Stacy

Orange you glad I found this analogy?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 12:41 am: Edit

Ken

---

Quote:

David, flying a ship in a circle in 3-D SFB is considerably less challenging than doing it in vector space.

---