Archive through December 08, 2004
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Archive through December 08, 2004
Stacy, most of the web-capable ships can lay abou t2-4 hexes per turn. I think it's possible to use two PCs to make a circular web of 1 hex radius in one turn.
However, that's a globular web.
We already know how to make a globular web in 3-D.
How do you handle a web caster creating a linear web?
How high up (or down) does it extend? Can you lay the web at a vertical angle relative to the plane of the map?
How do you track the position of each web hex in 3-D? One of the tricks I use to simplify things for 3-D is to define everything relative to the frame of reference of the target or another ship. Web does not conform to this, especially cast web...
"when the web is first being layed how does it know what radius it's going to be (or even if it's going to be a globe instead of a wall for that matter). it's only after a bunch of the web has been layed that anyone can know this."
David
I'm not quite sure what you mean. But if I understand you correctly-as far as LAYING web is concerned...it doesn't matter.
Until the web is finished being laid it usually has no strength the energy cost of laying is high enough that most will wait until it's done to add reinfrocement. Sans reinforcement web is just an abstraction.
Also just as a point-in most scenerios linear and globular web is pre-laid making most of this moot...
regards
Stacy
Ken
See Spiderman analogy.
Or...take a compass draw a circle that's equal to the number of hexes across the cast web. Then take that circle and orient it to the ecliptic however the web casting ship chose to "fire" it. Perhaps it's on the ecliptic, perhaps it's tilted to the ecliptic. The Web Caster would have chosen to orient it to do the most good.
This circle will form the botton of a cone whose tip is the where the firing ship was when it laid. But the only part of that cone that is important is that bottom circle-because THAT's the web. It's a like a circular shield,
I'm not sure if this is clear. It is difficult to describe these things verbally were I more versed in mathamatics I could express it that way. But I'm not, And I don't know if you'd understand it that wat either.
Were we sitting face to face and I had a sheet of paper I could illustrate my point in a matter of seconds.
Take that sheet of paper. Hold it in your fingers so the flat part faces directly toward you. That's you web anything on the otherside of it can't get through or shoot through.
However while you are holding that sheet of paper. The D-7 that is directly above your head can shoot you.
So magically another sheet of paper cast by your web caster appears above your head between you and the D-7.
However since that paper is only 8 1/2 x 11. So the D-7 is incovenienced and will have fly around the sheet of paper.
Now assume the sheet of paper is shaped like a circle.
I hope this helps Ken.
Best regards
Stacy
Ken
Or perhaps rather than a circle it's a hexagon...
regards
Stacy
Ken, you ask the easiest questions 
the web that's layed has a vector equal to the average ot the two anchors at the time they start it. the web cannot be accelerated and if the anchors loose contact with itdur to their vectors and cannot lay additional web to bridge the gap the web collapses. A globular web will then be an additional unit on the map with a fixed vector.
a webcaster may have the ability to apply some vector relative to the casting ship as it is cast but after that it is again just another unit on the map with a fixed vector
in fact the web fist is just a small hunk of web cast at a high relative velocity so that it's impact does damage (and since it's denser then normal web and moving much faster then normal ships it can do more damage then the ship would take slamming into web)
a webcaster actually lays a disk, not a string if there are no anchor points so having it lay vertical web isn't meaningful
the question of the height of the web is a question I don't know the answer for right now.
web can be layed at any angle you don't have to track the position of each hex, you track the vector and position of the web as a whole and a desctiption of the web.
the description of a linear web would be the anchor points plus height. you can easily plot the line between the two points, and the height is expressed as a vector who's components add up to the height value. you apply a future position marker type object from each hex of the web to define the edges.
the description of a globular web is the radius of it, anyone hitting that range from the center is affected by the web.
the description of a cast web is a AVID facing that's perpendicular to the surface of the web. anything within the radius of the web in any of the AVID windows 3 away from the facing is affected by the web (yes this makes the disk spread out like a cone, but it's a short range effect and it sweeps through space so it shoule work)
Stacy. web can be stretched between ships, powered up, and then lengthened. most of the time it won't get power until it's finished, but even strength 0 web blocks weapons fire.
David
You're absolutely right-it does block direct weapons fire. I made my statement too general. I meant it was an abstraction in terms of movement.
I have to say-I read over your description and immediately went into brain lock. Not because I think you are necessarily wrong. indeed you might be right. But it does strike me that it's all horribly complicated. And perhaps more complicated than it needs to be.
Now I'm going to take a chance here. I haven't read everything to the beginning in his section-so there are a lot of things that you all are in the know about-and I admit that upfront. So what I'll try here is suggest a fresh way to look at the problem and perhaps some good evaluative tools for measuring their worth.
Many times along the way the the development of SFB the designer(s) have made some concession in favor of playabilty
versus "reality" (Like we have ANY reality once we start talking about FTL Warp driven ships...)
For instance look at the standard orbit around a planet. On hex face per turn.How many things orbit the Earth that fast? In fact it wouldn't be possible to be in a freefall trajectory around the Earth at those speed (Although concede that perhaps a "forced" orbit may be possible-but still...). But we adopt it to aid playability.
So as we make the leap 3D some constraints may be called for. And I suggest in this case that it would be this-while in SFB a linear web doesn't have to be prefectly straight in 3D you really should require all linear web to be perfectly straight and no angles in it's "length" (diameter). You don't have to but if you don't you are adding another level of complexity that serves the game no good.
I sit down here and and yes globular web is easy.
Linear web...now that's more complicated. In all the time I played the Tholians I almost never used linear web. Usually if you are where linear web is your best defense as a Tholian (Assuming you're not in an asteroid belt ) you're really wise to disengage and wait for reinforcements. It was circumstances like this which resulted in the pinwheel (Oh and THAT should be fun in 3D too!)
But here is what I suggest-linear web, whether laid (not layed-we've all been doing that me too!) or cast is treated as a circle who's diameter is equal to the number of linear web "hexes".
As the laying ships, or laying ship and anchor move apart imagine this perfect puddle of energy who's edges advance directly behind the laying ships. Almost like a pool of mercury.
This circular puddle (which infinitely thin like a sheet of paper) has an angle between it and the plane of the ecliptic. This angle is determined by the angle of the laying ships. Both ships must be MUST have the same angular relationship to the plane of the ecliptic (Can't have twisted web-at least until Ken starts working on 4D SFB;) ). So linear web is essentually 2 Dminensional Globular web in the 3D universe (In our more familiar 2D SFB universe a globular web is the 2 dimensional equivilent of a sphere) and linear web is the 1 dimension version of the 2 dimensional version..
So you lay a linear web in 3 d you are creating a circular shield who's angle relative to the plane of ecliptic is determined before the first "hex" is laid. This is circular. When it is one "hex" in diameter. It's a circle completely filling that space. When it is two it the circle covers a diameter of two "hexes" and of course it is center on the "hex" where the proccess of laying began.
•Linear web is circular but a FLAT round plain.
•Globular web is circular but a SPHERE a giant ball
It's my opinion theres a FOUR dimensional web and it was this which enabled them to make the leap from their galaxy to ours. But I have a suspcion it's real tricky stuff. Causes dimensional interphases in the vicinity of their use for YEARS after..
OK how do we evaluate this stuff
1. KISS-you all know what this means. Keep it simple. Complicated is never good in a game. So when faced with two choices go with the simpler one.
2.Playability is ultimately more important than reality.
3.The rules language should strike for simplicty. 3D is going to hard enough without making their rules tough too. Short sentences and while I hate to say it...dumb down the langauge.
Remember Lockwood's Law-"Most people are of average intelligence. And average intelligence is STUPID."
As I said I had given more than a little thought to this issue (3D Web) say about 16 years ago when I was heavily involved in SFB and all this is pretty much what I can find in what few notes I have left from those days.
keeep up the good work
regards
Stacy
Stacy:
3-D SFV, remarkably, pretty simple.
You and Devid are treating a cast/linear web as a circular (hexagonal) object with a "corner to corner" distance equal to the linear distance in SFB.
We can fudge the difference in area if we have to...it's representing this as a persistent entity (rather than a range from defined object) that gets tricky, because it breaks a number of the simplifying assumptions of 3-D.
We are defining an object that, if fired straight "down" is 1 hex thick by 30+24+18+12+1=84 hexes in area. A 4 hex web is 55 hexes, a 3 hex web is 31, a 2 hex web is 13, and a 1 hex web is 1.
This somewhat breaks the linear model of web hexes to strength points...and I sincerely doubt anyone will ever use a 1 hex web for anything in 3-D.
And, again, the record keeping ("there are web hexes in these hexes and altitudes") looks to be pretty nasty.
More after I stuff a cat into a box.
And the cat was better at avoiding the humans and delayed his trip to the vet.
We define everything in 3-D in 30 degree angle increments. (This, right here, makes some of the oddities of the W web go away.)
I define physical distances and distance related functions (rate of closure of a seeker, an ESG) as being a range from a point that is tracked on the map -- a ship, in most cases.
It is possible to define the initial placement of the web as being a 5 hex radius hexagon, centered on a hex that's 10 hexes away from a NeoThol NCA. That works fine when the web is laid perpendicular to the firing arc....until the casting ship moves.
We have to show the position and altitude of 85 web hexes to get their proper orientation. That's more counters than a Fed carrier strike's drones. wave...and unlike drones, each one has a unique identity for postion in space.
This is a mind-numbing prospect of record keeping, particularly when we try to replicate the flexbility of the web caster in creating webs that are not perpendicular to the firing arc of the firing ship.
We could (theoretically) define cast web in terms of the ship it's meant to hinder, but that doesn't work either.
I'm not terribly worried about it - even without the Tholians, 3-D SFB is pretty fun, and too many of the Tholian rules rely on the 2-D map frame.
Ken, if a ship launches a shuttle or fighter that unit becomes an additiona unit on the map to track with it's own location, speed vector, and attitude
cast or globular web would become an additional unit on the map to track.
don't try and track every hex of it. track the center, the shape, and the size and you can figure it out
globular web is like an ESG, but just not nessasarily with a unit in the middle of it (although the wedding cake useually will)
for cast web imagine an AVID firing arc that can fire at anything on the equator (yellow arc) up to a range of X (the size of the web) and you track it's location, speed, and the direction of the 'top'. at longer ranges the web becomes 2 hexes 'thick' with this approach, but I think it's close enough
linear web requires anchors and so can be defined in terms of those. but it does get more complicated as the height (and the direction of height) would need to be determined
but you can have a LOT of tholian battles with just cast and globular web
the pinwheel would require 4 ships wouldn't it?
I think Linear web should be a single plane hex in 3D (forget my diamond idea, that doesn't work). The main thing is that the distance from the center is the same in any direction. The cost per hex shoudl go down a lot and say that the cost is the SFB cost based on the Radius.
There is then no such thing a linear web in 3D.
[edit] Ken, as to angle I allow 60° tilt to the horazonal plain of the firing ship. Of course the entire web must remain in the arc of the Caster.
As to laid web have the ships travel not in a straight line but along the circumference of the hex plane. First they pass each other and connect web, then one turns right and the other turns left into an arc. The web fans out a bit and fills in. The move after the pass would probably be more like the line in a Yin Yang symbol.
Let me explain that better. Ships pass and lock webs. They make a Yin Yang maneuver out to the edge of the circle. They then travel along the outside of the circle to 0° and 180°. There they remain as anchors or attach it to an anchor. Allowing the web to fan out a bit will shorten the distance a bit to match the SFB maneuver.
the problem with linear web being hex shaped is that it means that the web can be trivially bypassed at the anchor point
I'm not too worried about the linear web strangth thing becouse we don't have any idea how web is really formed anyway and it's easy enough to postulate a feedback mechanism for a web area that reduces it's cost from O(N^2) to O(N)
David, that's the case with SFB too. At the end of the web (anchor point) I just side slip around it. The issue is getting around it from the center.
Loren, I'm thinking in terms of two (or more) sections of linear web attached to the same anchor point. in 2D SFB that's a solid wall, with hex shaped linear sections it's trivial to bypass
Oh, I had mentioned a solution for that earlier. In the case of two webs at the sam anchor the area at the anchor would fill in.
This does present a quandry with anchored rings shaped like globular web though. I suppose there would have to be an anchor at the top and bottom and the web set up like ships shields.
I'm not sure there's a reason for anchored linear webs shaped into globes
just put up a globular web and you can still put a asteroid there to build a base on (silly thought, you can put ground bases on asteroids, can you put a power base on one to power the web??)
The point of the achored web was long term maintenance. And the Tholians could drop one side to zero if they wanted.
What I find amusing is how the tenor has gone from "Ken is nutes" to "OK, it works, how do we do webs?" in under a week...
Ken
Insanity and competence aren't necessaily mutually exclusive ;) But sanity is overrated. If it weren't for crazy nuts we wouldn't have a lot of stuff. Better to try and fail gloriously than never to try at all. And of course-sometimes you succede!
David
There's NOTHING to stop it. So shhhhhhhhh! Stop giving away Tholian state secrets;)
regards
Stacy
David -- silly thought, you can put ground bases on asteroids, can you put a power base on one to power the web??
Only if you've got a ground base that both has a web generator and the ability to be installed on an asteroid. Conveniently for those who have to fight Tholians, no small or medium ground base with a web generator exists in the game. I suspect that they're impossible for some reason; if thery were possible, you can bet any Tholian admiral would be yelling his lava off for GBDPs with web generators . . .
they would be useless on planets with an atmosphere and without the atmosphere they can be targeted at long range so there wouldn't be many of them.
but I can't see any reason why one or two P-3 couldn't be replace by web generators. unlike web tenders they aren't mobile, but if you had a moon in the proper location they could be useful (place them on the near side of the moon to the planet and the area that they can be targeted by external forces becomes VERY narrow )
Actually after the advent of pseudo fighters...er fast patrol ships with web generators the need for web equipt grand based defense phasers vanished. Mobile platforms that under web seige conditions could 1 Quickly being able to move very quickly to any part of the 3 tiers to provide quck reinforcement energy. 2 Utilzing the same fast speeding ability to move to strike targets of opportunity where they arise. 3) Under the conditions of a web seige what might be a liability in opens space-the relative fragile nature of the craft is quickly neutralized as a disadvantage making the firepower of a pf equal to a standard corvette.
Now you want to make people crazy have a web seige with p/fs in 3D it would probably look like a swarming bee hive in ultra slow motion-yet in visualizing such a battle it would have a certain elegant grace.
regards
Stacy
David Lang and Stacy Brian Bartley,
I believe you might be mistaken about zero-strength web blocking weapons fire, in your posts from 1:21 AM and 3:09 AM today, but the wording is confusing.
G10.61 says "No direct-fire weapons may be fired through a web hex, if a hex has web in it, it is a web hex." This makes no distinction with regard to strength, and certainly seems to support your contention. But note the fourth sentence in G10.61, which says "If the strength of the web is zero, this rule does not apply." So what does "this rule" refer to in that sentence? It seems to me the most logical way to read it is that "this rule" is G10.61 itself. If it doesn't mean that, I can't figure out what "this rule" does refer to. Since the basic rule of G10.61 is that DF weapons can't fire through web hexes, and that sentence says the rule doesn't apply to zero-strength webs, then zero-strength webs don't block fire.
I readily admit I'm not certain this is the correct interpretation. G10.7 has a statement at the beginning of the section explicitly stating that the following rules apply to webs with strength greater tha zero. I think a similar statement should be added to the beginning of G10.61, if zero-strength web doesn't block fire, or the sentence about "this rule does not apply" needs to be clarified, if they do block fire.
I'm going to ask SPP to look at this so we can get the right answer.
Alan, I think you're right
I'll be honest I haven't picked up the SFB rulebook in 10 years and still am trying to get caught up. So David pretty much persuadced me. However I must confess my intitial belief was that zero strength web could NOT block weapon fire. But I could find nothing in the rules to back my memory so I bowed to David.
There's nothing in the rulebook that says an elephant can't pitch (Of course whenever I tried that approach with SVC he's ammend the rules to say:
"G678.6.8.4748a.Under all systems and interacting and superceding all other rules whether in the master rulebook, eratta, addendum from now until forever—elephants can't pitch!"
So at times it was frightening to tell SVC my best ideas).
Regards
Stacy