Seth,

I think you did mention that you wanted Klingons but I forgot to mention that last night when I was chatting with everyone who was giving me tips on the campaign. I am sorry. Thanks for being such a good sport about this. I have given you the Feds.

Lessss, still waiting for you to pick a race if you are interested.

I think we are going to roll. I have all the interested parties with races on the map. There is now a crummy map on my crummy website. Map is on the second page of my web site. (It is a work in progress people!) Thanks so much for your understanding and your patience.

http://innocentbb.tripod.com/

Okay, so how to read it? The left hand column shows the row letter for the Parsec, (A through G.) The numbers above and below correspond to the Parsec that they are immediately above or below.

Federation Parsecs are D1, D3, E2, E4, E6, F3, F5, F7, G4, and G6.

Klingon Parsecs are D5, C2, C4, C5, B3, B5, B7, A4, A6, & A8

Kzinti Parsecs are D9, C8, C10, C12, C14, B9, B11, B13, A10 & A12

Romulan Parsecs are D11, D13, E8, E10, E12, F9, F11, G8, G10, & G12

The Parsec at D7 is Tholian.

Home planets with base stations are G12, F3, A4, and B13. These each "currently" produce 25 bpv.

Satelite planets are G4, E6, D3, C7, B3, A8, D9, C10, C14, F9, G8, & E12. These "currently" produce 10 bpv each.

Seth made an excellent point. With drones as slow as they are, we are doing away with Warp Booster packs. Nobody gets those "yet."

Take a look at the map, and look at where your planets are strategically to others. Think about your ships. I know I made a lot of promises last night and I spent way too much time talking about the playability of thsi campaign with all the guys on the On-Line blog last night. More information to follow tonight.

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Could get access to the map.

Do our ships start at the HW or any of our owned parsecs if we wish ?

Looks like this is a blind movement campaign other than the fact re Economies.

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Francois,

Try and refresh. I forgot to publish the changes. The map is up there on my site. I just verified.

You have 10 Parsecs. You can start your ships anywhere you wish on your territory. But make sure that by the end of the turn they have access to sufficent FLSC units to keep them in existance.

Seth, I'm not sure this campaign forces everyone to build just war cruisers for the very example you cited. War Cruisers have little to no cargo boxes, and if eac of you see your opponents draging a "freighter" into combat, that is the most obvious first "target" given the rules of the campaign. But, maybe you are right and I am way wrong. That is why we play this stuff right? If there are huge holes in the game system we can account for that next time as this campaign will hopefully go very quickly.

I'll get into more detail as to what ships you get and why later tonight. Very busy at work.

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Got the map now .Thanks !
Question ?
There seems to be no space for the mid-major races ?
Re FLSC ;
Is the FLSC shipped to the ships automatically or does it have to be transported to the ships ?

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Frank, FLSC: with the ships. Hence his talk of freighters coming along.

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 08:54 pm: Edit

I have drastically changed the map to more appropriately accomidate the mid-majors. I was going to do 3-dimensional and multiple layers, but I don't have the strength for that this go-round.


Info on starships later tonight

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

What bleeding time zone are you in? :-)

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 12:45 am: Edit

Right now I am in Mountain Time Zone.

Everyone may select armed freighters and they do not count towards your size class limitations. I've created the pre-liminary list of ships available in this campaign. I have also changed where the planets are on the map. Refer to the website for that information.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 01:25 am: Edit

Ahh, light dawns. I think.
So for size class 3 you mean to say your fleet may contain 1 SC3 and 3-4 SC4's and the ships chosen come from a list you provide. So the National fleet may not exceed this number of ships?

Or this is what you start with and it is the list you can build more ships from?

Fed, Klink, Rom, Kzinti start with 700 BPV in addition to their ships Gorn Lyran etc get 0 bpv just the ships the start with?

Why allow Gorn Tugs?

Ships listed are all G torp versions? So are S types never available or may be purchased as refits?

If you are allowing BDD why not the BDL so a squadron can be formed? Ditto why allow DDL but not DDF?
Are you giving ships without cargo a 1 box virtual cargo box? I ask because of Thank goodness all ships have cargo space.

I'm afraid you are going to have to treat me like an idiot because I don't understand what framework you are setting up here?

Will we always be limited to 4 ships in operation? Is the 3-4 ship limit just referring to what variants we can build and we can build unlimited number of ships if we have the bpv for it?

What are we doing for progression of years and the ability to later buy refits?
I'm online now if you want to straighten me out.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 02:19 am: Edit

going offline

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 02:42 am: Edit

Les,

I don't think you are an idiot. Maybe my rules aren't as black and white as I had hoped. Maybe I wasn't clear so I will try to be more clear.

The four major races get 700 bpv each to start. The Gorns get 500 bpv. Lyrans and Hydrans get 400 bpv. Tholians get a whopping 250.

You have a certain number of ships to choose from (1 size class 3, x number of size class 4, plus freighters) to build a fleet. The Klingon is free to build F5s. If Ian really wanted to, he could just build 8 or 9 F5s and spread them out over all his territory (or park them all in one of his parsecs) and away we go. He is not required to build one and exactly one ship of each of the designs he is permitted. He is just limited in variety so that the Gorns, the Feds, and the Kzintis know exactly what they will have to deal with after a scenario or two.

I'm allowing Gorn Tugs because that was something that makes the Gorns "unique" in this campaign (as much as Kzintis getting faster drones, Hydrans getting better fighters, etc...) Of course, you do not have to take them.

I forgot to add refits for Gorns. My bad. I'll take a look at that tomorrow hopefully.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 04:20 am: Edit

I'd suggest not allowing tugs or pods yet as the client does funky things to the Ea forms. Or maybe Paul Franz will have V4 out by then.

BTW have you looked at the map overlays available or thought about making some of your own for terrain? You might also find it useful for making the game map.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 10:25 am: Edit

I see limitations on base stations, but can we by ground bases as well? Or larger orbital bases? How about fighter modules and such? Are the S8.0 deployment restrictions in place?

I'm not worried about all CWs, since I can't take any However, I am still confused by the "all ships have cargo" like Les says above. I have survey ships with cargo, a cargo FF, and the armed freighter. I take it at least one would have to be included with each mobile fleet or squad. Can the cargo carrier disengage from a fight, and rejoin with its warships afterwords? This will make a big difference in my initial ship purchases.

Floating map, or fixed? What size, if fixed?

Thanks,
Seth

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 01:35 pm: Edit

You may each have a standard base station in orbit of your home planets. That does NOT count against your starting bpv nor does it count against your original SSD designs with which to choose for your fleet. Fighters are nimble and you may have an infinate number of them on any planet and they do not require FLSC maintenence. You are also not required to have orbital fighter modules to "launch them" or "arm" them. They can reload all their "charges" by simply landing on a friendly planet, take a 1 turn delay for re-arming, and launch the following turn. They just can never leave the parsec without a carrier or freighter.

As far as ground bases and orbital bases go, that is up to you guys but I would strongly recommend against it. Your economies are already limited enough and if you want these things you are just allowing your enemies to have them as well which may prolong his campaign way past where it needs to be. I'd much rather play quickly with fewer options and you all have a much easier grasp of how to defeat your enemies. Things are going to be crazy enough as it is with having to personally "fight" all these battles the SFB way (instead of the F&E way) and adding extra things may just add to the confusion.

I also regret my comment that "all ships have cargo" boxes as I was looking at many of the SSDs last night. Some do not have ANY cargo. Which brings us the Freighter question, how close must they be to combat and still be able to support the warfleet? The board is "floating" so you can't just run away with the freighters. They have to be there, sort of. If you have a large armed freighter, you need to bring it "to the board" (as they can be hit) but there is no reason whatsoever as to why they can't operate 40+ hexes away from the combat. Have 'em hang back. If the Romulan wants to launch an R-torp at your freighter 43 hexes away, let it take the 1 point of damage on it's #1 shield. Big whoop. If the defender goes for freighter and ignores your warships, charge your tractor beams.

About Sieges....

The attacker doesn't have to ALWAYS be attacking to win a war of attrition. Remember, you all (except the Lyrans) can have unlimited fighters on planets. But a TURN is 3 weeks of game time. Inside that time, you can blockade each other's planets and attempt MANY attacks upon each other (21 attacks in fact) if you do not properly defend your worlds with main starships. Consider the folloing example:

Hydran Player is going fetal and going for an economic victory. Ian brings a D-6 and a Large Armed Freighter (packed full of speed 12 drones) to a Hydran Planet that is cranking the bpv. That planet is protected NOT by starships or a base station, but instead by 18 Stinger-Hs with unlimited planetary chages. Pretty nasty. Planetary devastation and capitulation requires 600 points of damage, a piece of cake if you use drone racks, but not so easy for Ian since he dares not to close with the planet for fear of being helllbored to death. So Ian sends his D-6 to range 20 of the planet and launches two slow drones. Hydran player launches two Stinger-Hs to shoot down the drones and Ian fires 4 disruptors (at range 15 or so) using UIM to blow up just one fighter. This process repeats until Ian has empted the drone racks on the D6 and the Hydran has lost 2 or 3 fighters. Then the D6 goes back to where the Freighter is (range 40 or so from the planet, but still ON THE MAP) and he sits there for a few hours moving drones from the freighter to the D6. The Hydran chooses not to chase him. So combat is over for today. Tomorrow the D6 returns and lauches 8 more drones at the planet, and the Hydran loses 2 or 3 more fighters. By day 10 (just halfway through one turn) the planet is defenseless and capitulates to the D6.

This only happened because the Defender refused to fly out and engage Ian with the fighters, for whatever reason. So consider these things before you choose what ships you want and why.

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Also...

Starships staying put defending a planet do NOT need cargo boxes to stay "in being" since it is assumed that the planet can store UNLIMITED amounts of FLSC units on he surface. You must still MAKE the FLSC units and keep them there for the ships to consume them, but you do not need to store them in a cargo box for the starships to get them (as long as they have one shuttle to launch to the planet to retrieve them.) Moreover, you are free to stockpile unlimited amounts of ALL things that could go in cargo boxes on the surface of your planets, no restrictions.

Cargo boxes do not have to be "refitted" in anyway to store certain cargo. Although you are permitted to store only one type of cargo per box, once it is emptied, you are free to put anything back in there at anytime without restictions. This campaign is going to be tough enough to manage without adding further difficulties here.

Sorry for the confusion. I hope I'm doing a good job for you guys managing our campaign. I am a rookie.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 02:08 pm: Edit

Since large armed freighters can disengage by acceleration, can they disengage from the battle to be re-united later on? I just don't see keeping them at distance as a certain defense. Say the Romulans have an old hull squad. Most enemy ships could bypass these slow units, hit the freighter, and the fleet is disbanded next turn. If the freighter can disengage, and then rendezvous with the fleet after the battle, this would seem a reasonable defense.

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Reminder: if we get enough people, and anyone wants to take the Romulans, I'll trade them for the Lyrans.

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Seth,

I don't have a problem with disengagement by acceleration (if no one else does) but I really think it's not going to matter. Fleets in this game are really small with small ships (for the most part.) If you run into a military engagement, chances are, the person you are engaging will either be defending a planet or base of sometype OR they will be a small fleet themselves with their OWN freighter to worry about. In both cases, pursuing YOUR freighter in an attempt to destroy it at all costs and ignoring your warships in an attempt to have them disbanded when they run low on FLSC units, may wind up costing your opponent the battle and maybe cost everyone the game. If they are defending the planet and they abondon it, start devastaing it to aquire it. Most likely there will be som FLSC units there on the planet that you can pilferage and who cares what happens to your freighter. If it is a small fleet, and they leave thier support vessels undefended in an effort to pursue YOURS, then you know what you can do to those ships. Maybe capture them (and take THEIR cargo) and fulfill some of the other victory conditions by aquiring ships from other players.

It's a small campaign. Do the numbers. You all know how much bpv there is. Does anyone really have any ships what-so-ever made for the sole purpose of pursuing enemy freighters?

By Paul Colburn (Innocentb) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Okay, I'm on my way to the airport to meet my wife and family and spend New Year's Eve in Las Vegas. Everyone have a great holiday.

You all know what you need to do and you all know what ships you can build. You all know where the ships can be placed. I'd like to start rolling early next year if possible. There will be more questions I am sure (and there are probably lots of holes in this campaign form) that you guys will find and exploit. So be it. We can always change things in the next game. But I'd like to get started so if you could E-mail me your initial builds and their locations over the long weekend I'd really appreciate it.

-Paul

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Since Freighters are outside the class limits and Gorn is allowed only 1 size class 3 and the Tug is a size class 3, and the Gorn FF does have cargo, I can guarantee Gorn will NEVER take a tug unless a battle pod is available as an option. So having Tug as an option merly serves to eliminate another ship choice option.

I take it you haven't updated the Gorn ship choices as per refits yet? Without that then I'm afraid no I don't know what is available to buy.

Again how are years progressing or are they progressing? If progressing will we have refits available as those years arrive? Gorn I see don't have a year limit listed yet.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Is there supposed to be something in F12?
Klingon HW is in E3 not G3 right?

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Ok so I have HDV but no escort5s available and I have the G10 Ftrs which the HDV can't rearm.

Ok so I don't need escorts and I can arm a Ftr the carrier wasn't built for. OK

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 08:19 pm: Edit

I see no refits are available ?
I get the impression our fleets are going into battle with our freighters right behind the fleet !? Interesting !

By Francois Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Les ;
I think F12 is the Tholian HW.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 08:43 pm: Edit

Freighters! We don't need no stinking freighters!