Archive through December 19, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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Archive through December 19, 2004
I concur that the energy spike was created on purpose, but on a base, where I'm going on the assumption this weapon would exclusively live, I could see a 6+8 two-turn arming cost. The sabot and overload functions would still be applied to the final turn arming.
Anyone want to make this Base only torp un-WWable? Launch while cloaked?
Since the sabot has it's own energy spike I would say it's safe to combine the arming of all plasma first and second turns.
100 dmg and massive range?
EPT-R.
I like the 2X armament of 2 Rtorps and 2 M torps myself. If you want 'more smaller' plasma, its a simple thing to shotgun or download.
In the X2 era, the ships will have faster battle speeds and stronger phasers than EY or MY.
For the BP to be effective, it has to have longer range.
A non-enveloping R-torp that hits at full strength to a EY CA would almost cripple the ship, even after dumping batteries into the shield. That'll scare a lot of captains.
To get that same effect hitting an X2 cruiser, it's going to take about 100 points. An R-torp that hits for 50 might not even knock the shield down, depending on how many batts get drained.
I don't have a problem with 3+3+8; I put 2+2+10 out there since that's an EPT-R's power cost, and to make my Type-O into a 200 point enveloper, it would take 2+2+20(!)
Geoff,
2xR, 2xM would be the logical progression for the Gorns or Roms.
But if you trade the two R's for a bigger torp Royal/Regalhawk style, I'd like to have something on hand to give them.
The type-Z/X/O torpedo are all proposals for that something.
Hadn't thought about that, but you're right.
If:
2 S's and 2 F's are standard for X0,
2 M's and 2 G's are standard for X1 *, then
2 R's and 2 S's would fit for X2.
*OK, they're called L's instead of G's in X1, but they're the same strength.
I think it's a good thing it was only an X2 version of an F5 that came through the time warp, instead of one of these cruisers. With X1 fast-loads, this ship can put out 80 points of plasma per turn.
Here's what we have for Big Plasma proposals:
| Range | creator | arming | 0-10 | 11-15 | 16-20 | 21-25 | 26-30 | 31-35 | 36-40 | 41-45 |
| Type O | Jeff T | 2+2+10 | 100 | 80 | 60 | 50 | 40 | 30 | 20 | 10-5-1 |
| Type Z | Vorlon | 3+3+8 | 80 | 60 | 50 | 40 | 30 | 20 | 10-5-1 |
| Type X | Mike R | 3+3+6 | 60 | 50 | 40 | 30 | 20 | 10-5-1 |
| Type R | SVC | 2+2+5 | 50 | 35 | 25 | 20 | 10-5-1 |
Ships move. X1 and X2 ships move fast. I don't see a need to put even larger torps on ships. I do see a need to give the base something big to defend itself with.
Regarding more smaller plasma, consider, the last war was against the Andro and they displace torps they don't like. More torps is necessary to even think about getting a dis-dev Andro plasma hit.
Andros always fight in squadrons or fleets. At that size battle, the shotgun plasma becomes more important. You can have a lot of small plasmas on the board, and have only a few big launchers.
1 ship launches a shotgun, the Andros displace, then the other two launch their shotguns before the dizzydev can recharge.
I would agree that the first place these really big plasmas get placed is on bases.
But, some Romulan is going to try to put it on a ship. It may turn out to be a unique ship because of shock problems, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of seeing this on a ship or two.
Quote:A non-enveloping R-torp that hits at full strength to a EY CA would almost cripple the ship, even after dumping batteries into the shield. That'll scare a lot of captains.
We are talking MY CA arn't we!?!...that's where most people lean to be afraid of the R-torp...the R-torp is really a gift for the Roms who don't have warp to be able to chase down their opponents.
Actually not really.
You chuck in 6 Ph-1s and 4 BTTY and take it on you're shield #1 and you take about 1 internal from the hit...sure you can't really fit afterwards but an R torp is really more a must hurt your ship weapon rather than a must cripple your ship weapon.
The WE tend to loose to the Fed CA because the R-torp just doesn't have the kick of four photons...amoungst other reasons.
Quote:Ships move. X1 and X2 ships move fast. I don't see a need to put even larger torps on ships. I do see a need to give the base something big to defend itself with.
2Ms & 2Ss is enough to kill a ship even an XCA so what we need is not more damage ( except for the poop y'r pants R-torp analog ) but rather longer legs for the plasma.
Quote:But, some Romulan is going to try to put it on a ship. It may turn out to be a unique ship because of shock problems, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of seeing this on a ship or two.
Without an X2 WE analog the Romulans just won't feel like Romulans!
Before brainstorming it might be a good idea to figure out what is Wanted. Obvious answer is "more of the same stuff that make plasma so good". But what is that???
What do you think?
Myself I like the LP RP arcs of the TKR.
I mean that the four torps share arcs, unlike what's the case with teh TFH and the Gorn.
I can also launch plasma out of FIVE shields, and that's great! The Phaser arcs work well with the plasma arcs on that ship.
Then it's the flexibility of mixing standard torps, EPTs and Bolting them.
Low arming cost.
And damage resistance because all torpedos are hit on, you guessed it(!) the "Torpedo" hit on the DAC.
I really find it hard to come up with some improvement to add to this list.
(I have excluded the sabots because they are a basic and needed upgrade. Not an option IMO)
Having all torps being heavy, and able to launch EPTs, is an improvement. But if that isn't enough I don't think longer range will add much. It would as a consequence just change the game to a long range attrition fight.
As I said it's hard to improve something so good as the plasma
I personally like a somewhat larger "big" torpedo - either the 60 point X or the 80 point Z - in combination with some other improvements that make the plasma more flexible, but not necessarily faster/bigger. To quote Ken Jones:
Quote:Arming
Plasma Torpedoes can be Enveloped/Shot gunned with Reserve (or battery) Power. Instead of having to be allocated. Even Held torpedoes can be turned into EPT/SG/LRB.
Movement
Using Carl Magnuss Carlsons suggestion to SVC. Rom 2X Plasma Torpedoes can HET and move. Instead of merely Hetting in place.
I stayed with using 32/40 for Plasma Speeds. R10 will be out soon. None of us have much experience flying against Sabot Torps. So lets not write them off with the Super Sabot just yet.
Pseudo Torpedoes
A minor improvement for Pseudo Torpedoes is the ability to simulate an EPT. Cost to boost the Pseudo Torpedo depends on the size of the launcher.
G 1
S 2
M 3
R 4
Pseudo Torpedoes can be reloaded in a scenario. It takes 1 pt of power for 4 Turns with a fifth turn costing the same as the final turn of arming of the torpedo being simulated.
Sounds like a good start to me.
We don't need bigger torps than the R.
Make Sabot standard for all X torps and you have your longer range.
Jeff,
Standard plasma loadout for both Gorns and Roms in X1 is NOT 2xM, 2xL.
It's 2xM, 2xS.
A surprisingly common misconception.
I like faster. Speed 48 plasma, same strength as X1.
I could see a bigger torp if it came with some disadvantage. I'm thinking an overloaded M-torp that does 80 damage to a single shield but has a max speed of 32. Like other overloaded torps, no PPT available.
Ability to overload and carronade the PL-L.
Dual magazine rechargable PL-D racks.
I apologize in advance for the long post.
Quote:We are talking MY CA arn't we!?!...that's where most people lean to be afraid of the R-torp...the R-torp is really a gift for the Roms who don't have warp to be able to chase down their opponents. ...
You chuck in 6 Ph-1s and 4 BTTY and take it on you're shield #1 and you take about 1 internal from the hit...sure you can't really fit afterwards but an R torp is really more a must hurt your ship weapon rather than a must cripple your ship weapon. ...
Without an X2 WE analog the Romulans just won't feel like Romulans!
No, I'm talking Early Years, when the R-torp was first invented.
And, I'm talking about what happens if a 50 point R-torp hits your YCA without you phasering it down first. Of course there are counter-measuers. But you need a threat before worrying about counters to that threat.
But you're right, If anyone would put one of these big torpedos on the ship, it would be the Romulans.
Quote:We don't need bigger torps than the R.
Make Sabot standard for all X torps and you have your longer range.
You may be right; I may be crazy.
But, at this stage, I'm just throwing an idea on the table.
If anything, it would provide a different type situation for an enemy captain; one that hasn't been seen since the Gorn YBB took on the first Warbird.
Quote:Myself I like the LP RP arcs of the TKR.
I mean that the four torps share arcs, unlike what's the case with teh TFH and the Gorn.
I can also launch plasma out of FIVE shields, and that's great! The Phaser arcs work well with the plasma arcs on that ship.
I never proposed that the great big torpedo become standard on Romulan ships. Most would have something like 2 Rs & 2 Ms to upgrade from 2 Ms and 2 Ss. But, this would be different, for those who still like the old WarEagles.
Quote:We don't need bigger torps than the R.
The R is right if we have a tripple overload for it, otherwise the Roms just won't feel Romulan.
A Fed YCA using Phasers will still knock down 2 damage from BTTYs 15 from Phasers ( by centerlining it and a further 24 on her shield #1 for just 9 internals.
It's not the ship killer one might think.
That being said there is a more to water down the offensive capasity XCAs such as the push by most people to have just four disruptors ( built in UIM/Disruptor Caps/Six impulse double broardside disruptors but disruptors none-the-less which is a drop over 6 disruptors ) so I don't see ships having huge amounts of plasma warhead strength...really good plasmas that hit home yes but not huge amounts.
Remember plasma all got a 50% upgrade when they went to a two turn arming cycle.
A Gorn BC might spew out 100 points of standard plasma on every third turn but a BCX is spewing out 140 points of plasma every even turn (or every odd one )...which is a relative rate of 210 compaired to 100.
That being said, if a Fed XCA has 48 sheild boxes on her #1 shield and fires all 8 of her Ph-5s as R1 rapid pulsed Ph-6 pairs and at R1 Ph-6s average 3.833 points of damage then we pull ( 0.5 x 3.833 x 8 x 2 ) 30.66 points of damage out of the torp and take another 15 from BTTYs and take another 48 from shield boxes yeilding use with a plasma torp that as a single torp to have the same threat value as an R torp against a Fed MY CA would have a warhead strength of 93.66 points.
2Plasma Ms basically crumpled the Shield #1 of an XCA even before the Plasma-L/Ss are taken into acount so the gorns certainly need no extra deadliness.
Personnally I just don't see the need for a 100 point Plasma when a 150 point point EPT will have the same poop their pants effect without introducing super plasma ships...if a Rom KEX can have 2 plasma Ls and a Plasma R ( and I checked the SSD ) than a XWE with a 100 point uber plasma would also have a 100 point uber-plasma plus 2 plasma-S...and that's just too much.
Since it's fair to say that the Romulans just won't fly any one-trick-pony ships like the WE after the lessons learned in the General war ( or atleast won't fly any one trick pony ships once war constructions begins to fight the Xorks ) we can expect even the most one eyed Romulan Uber-torp centric commanders will have some if limited back up plasma.
That being said we shouldn't move for a super torp except perhaps a super EPT.
The plasma side of the galaxy ( with respect ot all ships but particularly X ships ) have massive PBVs for a reason...2Ms and 2Ss is deadly.
We just don't need a 60, 75, 80 or 100 point warhead because Plasma is already increadibly powerful.
What we need are plasma Ms with the LEGS to chase down XCAs...40 points of damage on ships that have 48/40/40/40 shielding is pretty darn good as it is.
Well, 40 pointers are the S torp of their era. And S torps are nice.
Of course if we want a new ability then perhaps we should make it a double arming cost one, as for the EPTs and shotgun.
Double energy cost -> Uberspeed (48)? Perhaps with less resistance to phasers?
Double energy cost -> Hellbore EPTs?
Note: The energy cost of that would make it quite balanced, and note something used every other turn.
Here is an another idea
What about paying Extra energy to get more resistance to phaser damage?
(say two points rsp.)
Carl the Hellbore plasma's are a design for my Shield Galaxy E Module.
Originally I was calling them Hellfire Torps. But after getting the Triangulum module I have to rename them.
Quote:The R is right if we have a tripple overload for it, otherwise the Roms just won't feel Romulan.
That made no sense at all. I can only assume you are referring to the original Roms being the only race with an R torp in general usage? Which we know to be false because eventually the Gorns field them on DNs and CSs. So what is wrong with the Gorns putting them on their 2xca? Some nebulous 'racial flavour'? That's a poor basis for making a weapon bigger than any previous type.
The R is already the biggest weapon (except for technically, the mauler, but we all know the R torp is 'da man' of the heavy weapons world). Why destroy that mystique? Why not just improve all torps across the board slightly in ways other than warhead size? With the various loading/arming options in place I'd like to see a speed boost more than anything. Sabot fits the bill currently.
Other wonky little twists like wire guidance, enhanced ew, improved phaser defence or what have you would be cool too, but straight out 'bigger size' for one or any race just doesn't appeal nor does it make a lot of sense imho.
Quote:That made no sense at all. I can only assume you are referring to the original Roms being the only race with an R torp in general usage?
Sorry, I meant 2 plasma-Ms on an XWE would just feel un-Romulan.
Quote: Some nebulous 'racial flavour'? That's a poor basis for making a weapon bigger than any previous type.
Yes actually.
2 EPT-Ms will inflict 160 points of damage.
1 Tripple strength EPT-R will inflict 150 points of damage...and therein lies my thinking that we can have balance whilst still having racial flavour.
Quote:With the various loading/arming options in place I'd like to see a speed boost more than anything. Sabot fits the bill currently
That's my thinking too.
2 M Hits on an XCA ( Even the really big XCA designs ) is more than enough to hurt the target so I don't see Gorns running around with more than (or better than ) 2 Plasma-Ms on their cruisers ( not before the refit process to fight the Xorks ) and I don't see the Roms needing anything more than an R-torp ( which is good if the enemy has a 48 box #1 ) with possibly a tripple EPT ( 150 points ) to keep parity with the Gorns.
Quote:Other wonky little twists like wire guidance, enhanced ew, improved phaser defence or what have you would be cool too, but straight out 'bigger size' for one or any race just doesn't appeal nor does it make a lot of sense imho.
Has anyone ever proposed a splash damage overload setting as an optional firing mode for plasma, it may make plasma more cool.
Say warhead damage to the facing shield plus bolt damage on both adjacent shields!?!...for the cost of enveloping.
Frankly I kind of liked John T's good ol' idea of the big freakin' "OH CRAP" plasma. You know, the kind that'll make you run away. I'm thinking two new plasmas for Roms, the BFPT (Big F'ing Plasma Torpedo) and the wonky plasma. Call them Z-torp and X-torp respectively. Gives the Rom players some choices in their toys.
For the Gorn, someone mentioned a photon-enhanced plasma. That's easy, P-torp. Maybe they could take some kind of new "overload" route (V-torp). I presume the ISC will look at improving defensive plasmas (C-torp), maybe come up with a "sneaky" plasma (U-torp). I'm still cooking up a Web Torpedo (W-torp) on the back burner for the Tholians.
Just brainstorming a little, including the torpedo letters. I'm avoiding "I" and "O" as I hear they are no-nos.
The Photon-plasma's mine too.
A plasma torp with a crunchy photon center. I have it set as an upgrade to any existing F or larger plasma.
http://www.vorlonagent.com/sfb/x2/sect-f/photon-plasmas.htm
Heavy Plasmas (X and Z-torp) are found here:
http://www.vorlonagent.com/sfb/x2/sect-f/heavy-plasma-torps.htm
The X-torp damage table was Mike Rapers as of two years ago. I may need to update it.