Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through July 10, 2004	35		01/25 04:01pm

John try StarFleet Battle Force, it is quick and graphically appealing. It is also simple, I've used this game to keep my sons interested in SFB on those difficult stretches when time does not permit playing SFB proper. It is also a quick way to introduce new gamers to the SFU. Take a game with you to a game/card/comic store and get some of the guys that are playing Magic the gathering or Warlord etc. to try a quick game. You may win some converts.

By Clark Chism (Cchism) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Thank you Hugh & Jeff. SFBF is a good idea w/o enough time to play SFB. (Shouldn't be a problem this summer though)

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Hugh: Yeah, I want to get into SFBF at some point.

By Clark Chism (Cchism) on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

Whoops!
Sorrry Geoff.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:01 pm: Edit

OK, I have decided to upgrade the sKill level of my son in SFB. He and his friends have finally expressed a desire to learn the more involved rules such as mines, fighters, t-bombs, commanders options, EW, tactical intelligence, changing speeds in mid-turn and reserve power.

I am going to run a Captains game that is historically restricted. He prefers Hydrans in non early years games. I have picked the year 134 and the Hydran Ranger equipped with stinger 1 fighters. The reason for the time period is; there are no refits so he deals with the tech and ships as originally presented, and it links to the scenario that I will be using to teach him F&E the Hydran Liberation.

I have decided to alter the standard scenario encounters presented in the basic book as follows: ship duels will be with Klingon, Lyran, Jindarian, and renegade guilds and Orions. Monster duels will have one substitute and that will be a simulator race. This mission will be defined as "Fleet training". Since the Hydrans do not have a simulator opponent in C-4, I am thinking of using the Laceratan ship printed in Cap log.

I intend to have Marshalls friends run some of the duels, that way I can teach two at the same time. I have given Marshall the tactics manual to read up on Fusion ship tactics.

Does anyone have any helpful comments or insights that may benefit this training of some of the next generation of SFB and SFU players?

I will give brief reports on the results of the secnarios.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Training a Hydran scenario #1
Marshall roled up a duel with a Jindarian.
Location Asteroid field; Ships Jindo CL with a bomber and a full complement of t-bombs.
Hydran Ranger, stinger1's and as yet undetermined commanders options.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Captains game scenario 1 Hydran Ranger vs Jindarian CL.

This scenario presented several problems for the Hydran. 1) How to search for a hidden ship in an asteroid field. 2)learning deck crew ops.3)How to actually operate in an asteroid field without killing oneself.4) natural and generated ecm and its effects on combat.

I chose to take a CL with nothing more than 4 t-bombs, just to see how it performed vs a fusion ship. Fusion armed Hydrans and Photon armed Feds are the most dangerous opponents for the Jindos in an asteroid field due to their heavy in-close direct fire weapons imho.

The Hydran initially sent his fighters and ships in at speed twelve in groups of 3 intending to fire phasers and using following techniques to navigate the field. He found out that phaser 3's just don't do the job and recieved some damage on some his lead stingers due to asteroid collision. His nimble bonus saved him from some bad results. He determined that firing fusions at point blank would do better than his phasers but decided to slow down to 6 and recover and repair his damaged fighters.
After 10 turns of slow search, he finally came within 3 hexes of my position, and I fired an Alpha missing with one of the WRG's and started to launch shuttles. His ship and 1 fighter group pivoted and soon we were fighting point blank. In the end he crippled me and I nearly crippled him coming 1 control space and 4 internals away. 6 of his fighters were destroyed mostly by t-bombs that I placed and most of the internals to his ship were caused by suicide shuttles and prospecting charges. In the end he moved off and I asteroid disengaged.

Hydran vp=3.

Comments form the Hydran player.

First of all thank god for ceneter hull. Also for the fact fusion beams do not need to roll to hit.

Dad forgot to mention the fighting took two turns to do. When I discovered his location I moved in and used rserve power to to of my fusion beams and range one. Then at the beginning of the next turn moving speed seven I side sliped into his hex using two more overloads in his face. With my ship were three fighters they also fired they're fusion beams into the ship on the first turn of conflict did. Then they engaged in dog fighting with the nearby shuttles to take care of the shuttles and prevent point blank prospecting charges. Then the T bombs came down and they were blown to Hydrax and back.
I then closed with my six other fighters at speed twelve on the secound turn. Risking th astriod damage to get to The jindo and go for the kill. One triad made it to range one and fired. Then the •••• Jindo planted two more T-bombs near the other triad. ( I did not know about dummy mines which he planted previously). The other triad was done and I let him go.

Next scenario Duel with a pirate.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Hugh & Marshal,

First of all, I liked both reports. I do want to hear more.
Marshal, don't blame your dad for not telling a couple things here or there. There are alot of rules and sometimes, as a teacher, you might forget that you didn't explain a particular point. Regardless, you did well!

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:40 pm: Edit

I agree, but a new captain is bound to have some surprises! I hope after this Campaign to teach (with Marshals help) his other friends. Together we are forming a club called the Area 51 Star Fleet Research Team. It currently consists of me, Marshal, and his friends Alex, Zack, Mike and(an honorary member) my young son Benjamin (8yrs old) who likes Branthodon Space Dragons and turns the Impulse cards for us when we play. They already know Early years stuff but need to move on to the more advanced stuff (in small digestible chunks).

By Chris Smith (Casmith1) on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Seems like Marshal fared much better than my first meeting with the Jindo's. And I still had the advantage of open space. Good job Marshal!! In all my time, I still havent crippled another ship one on one versus a player of Hugh's skills.

By Larry E. Ramey (Hydrajak) on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 11:34 am: Edit

The Hydran prince commends you for not losing your ship in your 1st engagement vrs an unknown enemy. Good job!

By Marshall Bishop (Fusioncrazy) on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Wich one?

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Well, after much time and activity, the second scenario for "Training the Hydran" has at last taken place. It was not against a pirate as previously stated. In a last minute twist I changed the scenario to surprise our young captain and instead substituted an opportunistic Klingon to the mix. Ostensibly our young Captain has been operating near the Lyran border circa yr134-35 and would not expect a Klingon to be operating near his area. Due to the recent unpleasantness (Hydran Liberation) the Lyrans and Klingons had some unfinished business concerning their mutual methane breathing foes. Upon their return trip the Captain of the D6 Bushwacker, intercepted and decoded communications from the Ranger after his battle with the Jindarian ship had concluded. Realizing that the Ranger was within striking distance and would be repairing and replenishing, the Bushwacker moved to attack the Hydran.
In the ensuing battle the Hydran mangaged to inflict 25 internal damage on the Bushwacker, but lost 6 fighters and suffered 5 internals himself. The D6 commanded by Mike, one of Marshals friends, could not suffer crippling damage due to orders from the Admiralty and withdrew with both his rear and front shields down. A good victory for the Hydran, but leaving him with supply problems. Having already used 2 fighters from storage and recently recieving replacements from 2nd fleet, he may have to exhaust his fighter storage supply and fly with some internals until he can get to a repair facility. In order to do that, a ship must replace him on patrol, and Fleet is fresh out! Stay tuned for further reports!

By Chris Rebman (Tolenmar) on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 12:58 am: Edit

Seeing as it's been almost a year since anyone posted here, I wonder if I can kick off the discussion again.

Over the past weeks I've been training my son to play SFB. Actually, let me backtrack a bit. His first exposure to SFB was the cadet manual more than a year ago. He loved it, devoured it. Then inexplicably, when I told him it was time to graduate from the cadet ships to the full scale ships, he lost interest.

I didn't force the issue. He stuck with our group and learned to enjoy the RPG's we played. Now the group has fallen apart (everyone moved out of state, one even left the country!). So I've been hinting to him that I wanted to play again. He grudgingly agreed, and we played out a simple battle. Nothing too big and complex, and he lost, but he learned a bit.

Every time I brought it up, he was reluctant, but wanted to do something with dad, so he gave in. It was very infrequent, as I didn't want him to equate "dad's game" with a boring time, but I was persistent. For a few games, I took some of the rules from FedCom (mainly the faster EA system), and that seemed to get him over the dread of playing. We've since switched back to the regular system. He grumbled a bit, but it helped him to understand the EA system better, and now he doesn't mind so much.

At this point, I'd like to mention that I have been using the Battle cards from Module A. It makes a big difference in how long a game takes to play, and makes it much harder to forget which impulse we just did after all the firing and DAC rolls. Plus, I developed a handicapping system. We keep track of how many games we've played in each race, and the average is assigned a rank (lieutenant, captain, etc.). The idea being that two players can use the difference in ranks to determine who gets more BPV and how much. Still needs tweaking, but he enjoys the idea that the more he plays, the more likely he is to get 'promoted.'

Back to the games. Since I started that sheet, we've played four games. I started at the top of the list as a Fed, and have been working my way down. He gets to choose whatever he likes at the time. He still loses, but now he asks me when the next game will be, and what race do I want to play.

This weekend in fact will be our fifth game. You see on Veteran's day, he asked to stay home with me (I work the afternoons, so my wife usually takes him to his grandfather's when she leaves in the morning). We rolled out SFB, and he took a Tholian TC, and I took an Orion TC (outfitted as close to a Hydran as I could manage). It was a slaughter, but he did far better than usual. His losing didn't bother him this time. In fact, he laughed about it. He got to taste the Tholians, and wanted to learn more about the web.

So, knowing he still has a lot to learn, I was kind of reluctant. However, he now looks forward to each game, and I certainly don't want to ruin that. He also asked me if we could do a squadron battle. I almost fainted...

This weekend, I'll take a Tholian fleet of 4 PC's, a WT, and a CA-Photon. He chose Orions. Orion PF's.

That boggled my mind as well. I told him what PF's were, and he decided that he wanted to try them out. Then I asked him if he was sure, and reminded him that each one has its own EA form. HE almost changed his mind until he saw the EAF's for the PF's. Now he is sure he wants to try it.

Oh boy. This next game is going to be the most complex game ever between him and me. There are going to be a lot of rules to learn (he has to learn them, I have to re-learn them. Our group never used web or PF's much in the past). But the important part is he gets to try, and he wants to. He's practically bubbling over with excitement.

I'll let you know how this glorious failure turns out. It'll be a disaster, but it ought to be fun.

So the point of this very long-winded post is just this:

1) I've found (from teaching other people than just my son) that starting small is a good thing. As dull as it can get Fed CA vs. D7 is a good starting point. You get EA, you get drones, multi-turn weapons, and you can add in scatter-packs, EW, and any other rules as you see fit until they have the basics down, and are ready to move on.

2) While rolling dice for Damage is fun, it really slows the game down. Battle cards has made all the difference. I actually have three sets of damage cards all shuffled together. In this way we can shuffle and deal most volleys all in one go, and the cards can be arranged in order as you go so you don't forget which one-hit results you've gotten. The impulse cards are wonderful. Fewer dropped impulses, and you can set the card down in view when a fire decision comes up without fear of forgetting the impulse you were on.

3) Be persistant. I don't mean be a jerk and insist they try something they aren't ready for, but don't give up. It's taken altogether two years since I first introduced the boy to SFB to get him to enjoy playing regardless of the results and to look ahead to the next battle. Some people may not get it on the first go around (or the first ten!), but if you can keep them coming back, you just might eventually get them. I think my son just needed to grow a little before he was capable of seeing that kernel at the heart of the game that keeps me coming back.

4) Be patient. Nothing will ruin a new player's fun like having their teacher get exasperated (or worse) because they've had to repeat a given rule several times to get it to stick. Roll with it. They'll catch on.

5) Experience is a good teacher as well. After three t-bombs on the front shield, he learned not to follow too close behind me. And after showing him the rulebook, I could see a light click on. He got it. I'm just waiting to stumble on some of his t-bombs. Speaking of T-bombs, he also learned what dummy t-bombs were for in that battle. He or his drones detonated every hidden t-bomb I had put out. Then I started beaming out dummies. He veered around them, let me use them to control his movements, and even got smart and fired a couple of drones past them. Of course, I didn't tell him they were dummies, just reminded him that t-bombs can be set for any number of firing orders (ignore SC7 units, ignore the first X units...). After the battle, I reminded him that he had set off 4 hidden bombs, which meant that the beamed out bombs were all fake. He was so angry. Now he counts everything...

I'm rambling now, and it's late. I hope this helps a few people in bringing new players to the fold.

By Clell Flint (Clell) on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 08:13 am: Edit

My son (age 6) isn't old enough to learn SFB yet, but I have taught him the basics of Federation Commander. He has to be helped with the energy spending and we leave out things like accelleration and deceleration but the basic maneuvering, weapons firing and damage are pretty easy to explain.

By Daniel E. Bivona (Admiraldan) on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 10:49 pm: Edit

My 5 year old daughter keeps asking me to teach her "Daddy's game" as she calls it. I've been wondering if she is old enough to begin learning Federation Commander. Besides Clell, has anyone else tried teaching young kids? How did it go? How did you approach it?

Thanks.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 08:22 am: Edit

My kids were 6 and 4.5 when I started. They are now 8 and 6.5 in age.
Use the cadet stuff and/or fed commander. This makes for a real simplistic game. Do not worry about energy costs as you can do it for them.

Just put the ships at nice medium base speed and have them fly them around to get the feel for it.

Weapons fully charged, standard loads. I ignored seeking weapon races first game or two. Phasers, Photons (every other turn), Disrupters are plenty to learn when first starting out.

It worked well enough for the basic game. It also allowed me to show Star Fleet Battle Force a year later (which they love). They understood most of the cards first time through.

A more advanced version of the above (slightly watered down FedCom) is in the works for me to present in December then I shall give them my copy of FedCom for Christmas.

By Clell Flint (Clell) on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 09:41 am: Edit

Admiraldan,
What Lar stated is about the same as what I did just use the basics at first such as the Free version of FedCom. I did add full FedCom damage allocation about the 3rd time we tried it. The other thing I recommend is use Fleet instead of Squadron scale and give them a CA sized ship while you take a DD, or FF at least until they start crushing you consistently. Then you can make the ships more even. When they get good enough at math you could try using simplified Energy Allocation from SFB

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 12:51 pm: Edit

I hit my then-9-year-old with FedCom a year ago. He liked it some, flying an F5 around the map. I realized I needed to give him something "unfair" to me, since a straight frigate duel turned into a long stern chase for him. I'd like to get him into it again, maybe now that cold weather is here, I can do that again.

I think we played 3 times, and then Life kept us away from it. He's taken with chess right now, so I am encouraging that.

I have a terrible fear of throwing games at my boys too early and burning them out before they finish being teenagers, so I have been taking it slowly at introducing them to my games. I intend to save SFB for later.

It was a terrible shock to realize that he had no idea what a Klingon was. I felt like a terrible geek-dad.

My advice: take it slow, don't push too hard. FedCom is probably better than SFB for starting.

By Daniel E. Bivona (Admiraldan) on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 02:42 pm: Edit

I figured FedCom would be better. My biggest hangup is trying to figure out why she wants to play. I thought at first that she wanted to play just to have my attention, but even though I do other things with her, she still mentions that she wants to play "Daddy's Starship Game."

Anyway, thank you for all the suggestions. If anyone has any other suggestions or ideas, please throw them out. And if I get her to play, I will be sure to let everyone know!

Thanks!

By Chris Rebman (Tolenmar) on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Okay, so I'm a bit late with my promised follow-up. The reason is, we didn't play this weekend as planned. We got as far as setting up the board when I realized that every trick I was going to demonstrate to get the web established quickly was not going to work.
(I misremembered the anchor rules, and when I bought buouys to do it, forgot that ships with one shuttle can't replace that shuttle with a buouy!)

So after much frustration, we sat down with the rulebook, and I did a question and answer session. He could ask my anything about any topic he wanted, and I'd read the rules for that topic to him, answering questions as we went.

Then we dug out the tactics manual, and I gave him a homework assignment. Simply put, I want him to read one term paper every couple of days (or more often if he feels like it!), and we can discuss the paper. In other words, we've advanced far enough in his training that rather than focus on rules (which can be picked up quickly now), we are working on tactics.

Last night, as a matter of fact, we read 'Two Rules That Kill.' Then we read C12.0 and we did several examples together until we both understood how it works. And what do you know, I learned something as well.

We hope next week to set up the battle we didn't play this week.

By Chris Rebman (Tolenmar) on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 12:54 pm: Edit

And my opinion on using FedCom as a training book:

I don't like it. FC as a simple pick up game to attract new players is a fine game, and I don't begrudge the Steve's finding a way to keep their product lines alive.

However, I find the changes from SFB to be too extreme. Remember, I already have a way to speed up the impulse and damage allocation systems. Taking the energy allocation and simplifying it like that tended to lead to laziness later on, as players were reluctant to go back to tracking energy before the turn instead of as they used it.

Maybe its because I've been training my new players from the Cadet's book, which is structured to introduce one concept at a time, just with less of each concept (i.e., cadet cruisers are really almost PF's. So there are fewer weapons, less energy to track, etc.)

By Meryl Rutz (Sundance) on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 09:00 am: Edit

I found it interesting reading your examples of introducing your kids to SFB. I am only recently into SFB, but play a number of other games, primarily miniatures. I have wondered when it would be appropriate to introduce my kids (now 5.5 and 2.5) to gaming. The 5.5 loves games in general and has always liked to watch dad paint minis. The 2.5 loves to watch dad paint and plays with them if I leave them out and am not there to stop him. I play the Blue Skies series of WWII air minis and though it's a simple game, I wasn't sure the 5.5 could get the hand of it. Obviously, if you can teach a 6 yo to play SFB, FC and others, I should be able to teach her an air game. That may whet her interest in other, more complex games.