Archive through May 13, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Star Fleet Universe Training Command:
Getting women to play SFB:
Archive through May 13, 2002
Quote:They don't see the point in mock violence to prove dominance hierarchies.
Get out much?
Women are as diverse as anything. Try to tell them they are not and you rightfuly should DUCK. As a man I would sugest watching women in groups and then reconsider the "dominance hierarchies" thing. Also, check out a Trek convention. More men but the women are there. Women are different from men for sure. But thousands of years have made for most of those differances. Truely we are just all PEOPLE trying to make something of our lives.
About Kens friend, well then, what the hell is the point of Football. What problem does that solve. I would say that like all games, its just fun and probably keeps us from going crazy and killing each other.
SFB is complex so the fun can be a little hard to see. Men and women in general (IMHO) both like complexity but, if I may use a metaphor, women like their complexity more fluid and men like it more crystaline. The rules of SFB are rather crystaline while the actual play is fluid. Showing them that might help.
Swami Knight at your service 
*Steps down from soapbox.*
==
Both my women are (usually) MUCH luckier than
I. I have to muddle along with brute skill
to be victorious. ;)
==
Jennifer (using my account to play Flying
Deuces) just got drilled again in her third
game. 
It's very painful as a father to watch someone
who was so excited about playing this game
get just blasted by other players who are
talking about how rusty they are, how unskilled
and raw they are. That little addition hurts
a bit more, even if unintended.
She's told me she just wants to 'get this thing
over with' when she finishes her 4th game. And I
very much doubt she'll try again.
I knew this was likely, but it's still no fun
to watch. I don't know how to 'make it better',
but I'm trying to keep her spirits up.
(I'd offer to make a bribe to someone to take
a dive, but I don't want to cheapen anything
if she does win one. ;) )
Winning is the fun side, but someone always
has to lose. Ah well.
Scott,
A much, much better bet would be to find someone else of her age with a similar interest, set them down with a limited rule-set and police ships, and let them have at each other with you refereeing and providing rules assistance. This keeps them from getting crushed for their first several games and then dropping the concept entirely as a lost cause.
If a peer cannot be found, do it yourself; just handicap yourself somewhat. Don't take optimal shots, play your ship more or less like it's on autopilot, and thus give her a chance to tear into something for a change. You can slowly improve your choice of tactics as her play improves, and once she can hold her own against you without you holding back, you can turn her loose on SFBOL or whatever.
One way to do the self-handicapped thing is to fly your ship with no weapons at all for the first game, to let her get a feel for movement and her own weapons. Then, enable one phaser on your ship for the next game. Then two, then three, etc, until your phasers are all online. Then throw in your heavy weapons, one by one, until she is eventually fighting against a full-strength opponant and holding her own.
==
Thanks, Jessica. I may have given a mistaken
impression. She HAS played a local FTF con tourney, after some months of 'training' from Dad and a couple members of the local group.
Has also played little brother (and lost ) as well as an older cousin. Been trying to work her
up slow (assuming she wants to 'work up') and
she even did some playtesting on Omega 4 (loves
the Branths, very simple to fly).
FD is her first real exposure to SFBOL, and
it's a tough crowd on newbies sometimes.
Scott: I'll play an open game against her if you'd like.
(By "open", she gets to ask anything during the game, including "What's the thing I could do that would most mess up your plans right now?" and I'm honor bound to tell her to the best of my ability.)
Scott,
I *WAS* going to suggest a game between her and Veronica. However, I think Veronica needs a bit more schooling before she plays - she's not ready for FTF tourneys yet for one thing... (heck, she's still struggling to get the basics sometimes.)
Still, perhaps in the future we can have our own father-daughter battle...
==
That sounds like fun. ;)
I think part of Jennifer's (and Mike's) interest
in SFB stems from Chuck Strong's son Grant beating the stuffing out of older players.
I had a pretty fun game yesterday with the usual suspects down in Cupertino. During the day we got onto the topic of SFB compared to other war games, and I think the gist of our consensus was that SFB needs to evolve somehow to keep it thriving. Hopefully such an evolution will see a rise in playship from both sexes.
There was the hint of a thought that perhaps it would be prudent for ADB to try and secure a license to market Movie and TNG+ era material; i.e. get a bank loan and dish out the cash for new ST license. We obviously don't know how much a license would cost, but it crossed out minds.
The other thought was to streamline the rules for the basic edition. Cut out all the esoteric rules (like ESG and Web interaction), optional rules like NVC or Super Intelligent Computers, and publish a game that was essentially a shoot and scoot kind of deal. All the other rules would exist, but would be reserved for the current infamous "Captain's" version.
I obviously don't know what the market is like for SFB, so I could be just blowing smoke for no good reason at all, but we, the players, would like to see it to continue to thrive. Again, I could be completely out of my mind, but I felt a need to post these thoughts for the future of SFB.
George: Like SFB LE? Feds, Rom, Klinks and Orions. Kzinti and Gorn in SFB LE Expantion pack 1.
Perhaps a tournament style rules layout could work for this. One of each DN, CC, CA, NCL, CL, DDL, DD, FFL, FF. No carriers. Speed 20 drones only. Standard Plasmas. No EW but for natural types (just to introduce the concepts).
Yeah, something like that I guess. Maybe not even with that many classes of ships. And maybe a bit of a makeover in the art department too. I think a leaner, sleeker, more alluring (sexy, if you will) SFB is what's called for.
I don't know. I'm just tossing out ideas. I like the way the game is (save for the fricken photons), but I'm worried about its future, and have been for a couple of years now.
I strongly agree. For introducing new players the Cadet books didn't work for me, but neither does the Basic set. There should be something in-between for new players.
Lose all the complicated stuff (Web, ESG, Cloak, Whacky Phaser Arcs, EW, etc, etc, etc) and create new, balanced ships setup to play something similar to tourney rules. Call it Inroduction to SFB.
What's wrong with the "Cadet's Game", i.e. the list of starting, necessary rules at the beginning of Basic Set?
I have found that useful last time I inroduced a couple of players.
Well as long as we are blowing smoke Why not suggest a Star Wars F&E, which would spin out Star Wars SFB (in a galaxy far far away), and GURPS:Star Wars directive. The licensing would probably be cheaper and easier to acquire, than dealing with Paramount. Think of the myriad of minor races ADB could clear out its file of race submissions
Packaging. You have to buy Basic Set for $30 and the SSDs are historical rather than balanced for the beginning player. Its too hefty a book and scares off players. Contains a bunch of unnecessary stuff and not enough of other stuff.
I am forced to admit this. I started SFB when it came out in a zip lock bag. Rather unimposing I must say. When expantion pack 1 came out I was fully addicted. After that, it did not matter how big the rules got. In fact, new stuff never came out fast enough. I'd get a new module and spend a couple of hours looking over the ships and reading the new rules and scenarios. The next day I was ready for more! But if I pull back and look at it I can see that it is because I already know the game so well. At this point, if some one dropped the rules in my lap and said "Check this out!" all I could say is:
"Oww! Oh wow, this is cool, but this is way too much. I've got a wife and kid, dude. Sorry."
(Even the basic set would illicit such a response)
SFB LE might work if it could be kept down to the size of a Captains Log. Then, after becoming addicted to that, I would be inclined to move on to the heavier drugs, the ultimate high, "Captains Edition"!
Should this topic be renamed "How to get PEOPLE to play SFB, instead of Women by now?
Yeah, I liked the old expansion format. When I saw SFB in the ziplock bag way back when I had pretty much the same reaction as I did with a lot of other nerdy-sci-fi-wargames coming out at the time; "Another Star Trek thing made by some fan....how chinsy looking, yet alluring all at the same time..."
The old Hilderbrandt art on the cover of both zip lock bag and old designer's boxed editions, to my way of thinking, weren't very attractive. Yet the Trek name was behind the product so it sucked in people like myself. The upshot of the hook (which was the Trek license itself) was that the game, even though it was very Spartan in terms of visuals compared to a run in the mill board game like "Life" or "Sorry." But the meat of it was very good.
Even so Loren brought out a comment that was bantered about yesterday; and that was the imtimidation factor of SFB. The basic rules themselves are just too gosh-darn big to have any kind of seductive quality. I heard a couple people in our group say that even hard-core war gamers, that is gamers who've never played SFB, won't touch the game with a ten-foot pole. To me that says something.
On top of that Classic Trek isn't the big bad sci-fi boy on the street that used to be. There're so many other sci-fi venues in all forms of media that I honestly worry for SFB. New TV shows, comics, other game systems, videos, books, computer games, in my book, are encroaching on SFB; like a sci-fi version of urban sprawl encroaching on open land.
The Cadet Game; I introduced a friend of mine to SFB via the cadet game. He thought it was fun, but mostly because he was winning the matches. The cadet game, in and of itself, wasn't enough to hook him because it just wasn't that attractive to him. The clincher to his turnoff was the combined Volumes I, II and III of the old commander's edition. And so it went.
I had someone ask me "What are you reading?" while at Purdue's commencement last weekend (Point of Note: I was playing in the on-stage band... not graduating yet... and I'll probably pay attention at my own graduation). I was reading the rulebook that came with Module J. When I explained (briefly) what SFB was: "a tactical wargame... like MechWarrior... you command a ship... this is the rulebook for Fighter operations." his response was one of... well... for lack of a better word, horror.
Only when I pointed out that more than half the book was nothing more than unit descriptions and scenarios did he understand... and become intrigued.
I think that, for the vitality of the SFU, that we continue to push the poputlarity of the game we all know and love. Recruiting of new players is what keeps a game alive. Here's my "manifesto" plan of action (Just brainstorming here, go along with me):
1.) A new Cadet Training Module. Include the Federation, the Klingons, and the Gorns. This gives you a direct-fire race in the Feds, a lesser DF race with drones in the Klingons, and a plasma race in the Gorns. Plus, two of these three are marquee races in the TV series (we'll save the Romulans for an expansion... heavy torps and cloaks are NOT good for a beginner).
And don't include "Cadet Cruisers." The problem I had showing people how to play with Cadet Cruisers is that they felt like they were toys rather than full-on ships. Instead, include small ships from each race. That way, players who DO progress find that they didn't spend a lot of time learning a dead end... they are now GREAT frigate captains who have to advance (isn't that sort of the way it works in the real military, anyway?). I would suggest including:
| Ship | BPV | Year In Service | |
| Federation POL | 40 | 127 |
| Federation FF | 71 | 127 |
| Klingon G2 | 46 | 127 |
| Klingon F5 | 71 | 135 |
| Gorn FF | 45 | 125 |
| Gorn DD | 68 | 120 |
As you can see, all of these ships are available well before the General War (no advanced technology to contend with), are low BPV, yet would have a full range of systems to play with. You could probably teach a few things (transporters), but might want to stay away from things like labs.
2.) Cadet Advanced Operations. Another module to teach you what all those other boxes on your SSD do. Include the rules for crew, tractors, etc. If the players want more realism, they can get this.
3.) Other Powers: Here come four more races for your game. Include the Orions (optional weapons and engine doubling change the game dramatically), the Kzintis (the ultimate in drone launching ability), the Romulans (cloak... and did I mention the Plasma-R?), and Tholians (lots O phasers + web)
Ships could include:
| Ship | BPV | Year In Service | |
| Romulan SNP | 55 | 162 |
| Federation BH | 85 | 162 |
| Kzinti POL | 60 | 130 |
| Kzinti FF | 62 | 122 |
| Tholian PC | 59 | 83 |
| Orion LR | 68 | 129 |
(You'll note the YIS problem posed by the Romulans... and that this group of ships tends to outgun the first group... they must just make better ships.)
4.) Introduction to Cruisers. This would be a small pack (very little rule content) that would simply introduce the CA of each of the races (the Orions get the CR).
After all of this, if the players want the full scope of the rules and ships, they can get Basic Set (of course, they can get it at any time and not miss anything.)
Maybe a little too elaborate, yes, but a good way to hook people in without scaring them. You might also point out that these four things would cover most of that hefty Basic Set rulebook... and that a lot of the stuff in Advanced Missions isn't used that often (with a few notable exceptions).
And while I'm aware of ADB's throughts on online products, linking something like this to SFBOL V3.x (with ship customization) would allow players who don't have local FtF opponents to get into the game. Maybe have a series of games on SFBOL V3.x for just players with the Cadet Training Series.
Just my thoughts on the matter. I would like to see this game survive.
PS: Goofy, if your daughter ever needs someone to play, drop me a line. I'm really not good at all... and I won't discourage her. Plus, she can join the long list of people who have turned the Kzinti TCC "Happy Medium" into a large, expanding ball of flame.
-Francois
francois@purdue.edu
I actually think ADB needs to develop an SFB LIGHT - not a reduced SFB ruleset, but a modified ruleset that allows for faster rate of play.
Take Battletech. One of the negatives, even to die-hard Battletech fans, was that even a company vs company game would take all day to play (all the die rolls, moves, etc.). FASA is now dead.
One of the new companies that has Battletech has developed a version of Battletech then runs faster - a company vs company duel takes about 2 hours. From what I hear, there's no more "SSDs" just some adjustable indicators on the base of the miniature (ala Mageknight).
The "mainstream" wargaming industry is moving toward faster paced games. A decade ago, the average Warhammer game would take 3-4 hours. Now the average game takes 2 hours. This is a deliberate move by GW to broaden their target audience. (note: we may not appreciate GW for much, but they do have their marketing down)
SVC has mentioned a system that would do this (Star Fleet Squadrons?). I honestly think that's where the industry will have to go. Hopefully, we can keep standard SFB alive in parallel.
Thanks to the SciFi channel lots of people (young ones too) still dig clasic Trek. So SFB is safe there I think. Reguarding the massive rules set: There is a gaming shop here in Burbank called "The Last Genadeer". Everyone there used to play SFB. Everyone there quite because the rules got too big. So as I see it there are three groups of SFBers. Those who haven't played yet, those who played and quite because the rules got to big, and those (like us) who play because the rules are great and many and bring 'em on!
A rules sub-set that emulated the tournament rules would work. Ships should be chosen so that each class is within a couple of BPV. They don't have to be the same but comanders options balance should be achevable. Like, a Klingon F5 with a good drone load out should be balancable with the Fed DD with its limited commanders options. The Gorn DD has even less ability to bring its BPV up to another ship with drones.
SFB LE could be a good seller to us veteran players too, for playing quick park bench games.(Given that the wind is low!) Three ship squadrens should be the maximum the game can handle. The whole thing should come before the general war. Absolutly nothing after the start of the general war. If you want to know about the GW then buy the Big Game. Ya, I think a good start would be the Tournament rules set. Then break that down into Basic and advanced. Don't have more that one expantion. If new players are ready for a third expantion then they're ready for the Full set of rules.
Remember! People will want to fly the Enterprise against the Klingons. So you will have to have the main line cruisers. If you don't, then the whole thing will bomb. I guarantee it!
SFB LE. Hmmmm. I could sell that one to my wife, maybe.
And if I could do that then you all may see me at Origins someday.
One of the biggest things I stress to potential new players is that 90%+ of the rules are optional or advanced rules they don't have to worry about till they are good and ready. When you point out that you can have them on the map, doing EA, moving, firing weapons and rolling damage in about half-an-hour, it gets a lot less intimidating. And SFB has such a high degree of self-constiancy that once you learn the core engine (EA, impulse, movemeent, basic combat, seekers), it all starts clicking together.
Hrm, the idea of a pocket SFB Lite with exapnsions doen similar to the current Ogre line is something that would appeal to me as an advanced player.
All those suggestions about the rules are good in my book. Personally I'd just like to see better artwork. That's always been one of my pet peeves about all products-Trek; the art rides a sort of Richter-Scale in terms of quality. Some of it's really good. Some of it's really bad. The old axiom of "I'm no art critic, but I know what I like" holds for me when it comes to past SFB art.
But I think the art needs to transcend all layers of the game. I can imagine a future SFB edition that's more mainstream in terms of not only gameplay, but also in terms of visual appeal. Perhaps minis, a hardbound folding gameboard, colored and laminated SSDs, and other trappings of a Milton Bradley or Parker Brothers' game. Something that can, on a very superficial level, stand next to a (as was mentioned yesterday) "Warhammer 2000" like game. I think something like that, with streamlined rules, would attract both sexes.
Just tossing out idears
SVC. A hard bound basic set map would be a major priority buy! George, thats one of the best ideas I have seen to improve game play. One fold. Steve, since you really only need one, I would be willing to pay $10.00 to $20.00 for that!
What would really make it a hot buy would be if it had the asteroid map on the other side. Oh yaaa baby!
Please, consider this!