Gary, to get to the sun with the nova weapon you would have to get through the surface of the sphere. even with SFB weapons it's hard to blast a hole large enough to get through safely.

as for moving the sphere, I always took it to be that there was some genius at this particular place that managed to rig up the one-time-only event.

as for the tholian foothold, I always took that to be fleets like the 315th (battlestar galactica style fleets running to nearby galaxies). that would explain why the selts were able to smash them so easily

if you had a substantial number of spheres, including ones larger then the provincial capitol size, with shipbuilding capability alerted to the selts ability you aren't going to easily smash that force

as a result there would have been far more then a single hive ship sent out after any other forces

however if the forces setting up in the nearby galaxy only had ships and normal open-space shipyards and bases then it's much easier to smash them and then for smaller forces a single hive ship is a reasonable force to send out after a refugee fleet (the selts never expected to bump into an established sphere as the fleeing forces wouldn't have time to build one)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 03:03 pm: Edit

THe point I was suggesting as regards driving the sun nova was that instead of trying to send a fleet to batter down the walls, as it were - which is probably what kind of uprising the Tholians would plan for - have the suicide ship pass through the sphere's security lock (like the docking port seen on the Dyson Sphere in the TNG episode Relics) and once it passed through the entrance head straight for the sun and drive it nova?

Perhaps in order to prevent the Tholians figuring this out over a series of individual attacks, have all Spheres sinultaneously attacked, and perhaps the grid at what is now Tholia was able to detect the suicide ship's deadly cargo - or the Selts on board messed up the mission - and were able to survive, while the other Spheres were annihilated.

Gary

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

This is not possible. I cannot go into detail as to why but it isn't and you'll see why.

Disabling a sphere's defenses is possible if very dificult. Devestating a sphere and reduring it uninhabiltable is possible with a long sustained strike. Actually detroying the sphere would take weeks or months.

Capturing it is easier than actually destroying it and to actually destroy it you would need to capture it.

You cannot destroy planets at all. A sphere has at least as much mass as a planet and is extremely tough.

The nature of the "star" inside prohibits it from going nova.

That's all I can say.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 06:50 pm: Edit

A dyson sphere, even a small on is still a huge thing.

A "small" dyson sphere built around a minimim-for-fusion-size star might have (pulling a figure out of the air) a radius of "only" 1 million miles, a conservative 200 times the diameter of the earth and therefore 8,000,000 times the surface area of the Earth. Not land area. Total area.

You can punch a hole in something like that, but *destroy* it? Would take a loooooong time unless it's spenning and hitting the right supports causes it to centrifugally spin itself to pieces.

Loren is hinting that perhaps "Dyson sphere" isn't quite the right term for what the Tholians built. It may be closer to a planet-size object, in which case all bets are off.

A theory on what the Tholian Dyson sphere might be like would be this: Suppose you build a gigantic sphere of web around a star, then mount something like flat, inward pointing panels in the web. it would be a sphere, perhaps even loosely classified as a Dyson sphere without being quite so huge in terms of land area

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 07:21 pm: Edit

So then is the kind of object you are referring to not an actual Dyson Sphere around an existing star, but a planet-sized object around some artificially-generated power source?

Since the object itself needs only to be large enough to sustain thermonuclear activity - not necessarily without external manipulation - it need not exist before the sphere's creation (it could be generated by a process triggered upon its completion , indeed the properties of the sphere itself could act as its catalyst) and need not be bigger than, say, Earth? (Is this the kind of size we are taling about, or more akin to Neptune's diameter?)

Either way, the Tholians would presumably have at least one hatch on the outer shell to allow ships to enter and leave the sphere (the inside of the sphere would serve as a very useful safe port and production facility, and the ships would have to get out somehow) and if the internal power source is artificially-generated, one could feasibly disrupt the balance and cause an uncontrolled chain reaction - a ship packed with antimatter could do the trick - and even a naturally self-sustaining power source could be vulnerable to external influences.

I think that the point of what I was trying to suggest has been missed somewhat, as what I had in mind was not that a Selt ship fought its way past the guards and injected the star with a bunch of antimatter: I'm thinking more of a Trojan Horse... well, bug! EIther using a captured Thlian ship or a presumed-loyalist Selt freighter - with its deadly cargo carefully shielded from detection - would pass through border security and the Tholians would not catch on to them until it was too late.

Even if you didn't force the star to go nova, a premature expansion of the star or affect on its composition would do much to make existence within its biosphere very unpleasant indeed - and our own Sun, long before its helium runs out, will make life on Earth impossible after 1 billion years, so there may be means to mess up the sphere's energy source without a cataclysmic nova, just by baking the inner surface.

Gary

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Gary,

Loren is saying that your idea is a non-starter for reasons he can't fully explain right now. If he is the one with permission to write this, I think he is the one who would know.

Regardless, I doubt the plan would work, even with a TNG-style Dyson sphere. The simple reason is racial superiority. I doubt the Tholians would ever allow ANY non-Tholian into one. Under any guise, for any reason, at any time.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 01:22 am: Edit

Mike is right.

However, nothing I'm writting is official until it goes to print (as is with any SFU writer). I check here because I like to hear the thoughts of others. Many share similar ideas as I do yet from a slightly different perspective. Its a good thing.

So while some things I say are extrapolated for established fact of SFU history other things are just where I'm going and NOT official (yet).

The thing is is that I'm sure Steve doesn't want me reveiling all the secrets that everyone has been wondering about all these years; the publication's got to sell after all.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 02:44 am: Edit

SVC has stated that the tholian dyson sphere is the size of a gas giant (30,000,000Km diameter), only about threee times the radius of earth.

the sun that powers it is not a natural star

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 12:00 pm: Edit

You mean 30,000 Km. That's the aproximation but not the exact amount.

Your inferance regarding the sun is logical conclusion. I always try to be logical.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 03:04 pm: Edit

I have the following in my Tholian notes file:

By Steve Cole on Thursday, September 23, 1999 - 10:54 pm:

The Tholian homeworld is 25,000km in diamater with a tiny itty bitty special star in the middle. They brought the whole thing with them. We don't have to figure out how they did it since they have extra-galactic technology we cannot understand anyway.

By David Lang on Friday, September 24, 1999 - 12:23 am:

with that size sphere (~3 hexes) the SB should be in orbit. if we were dealing with a larger sphere one in orbit would have to large a blind spot. It would still be a possibility to have the SB really be "SB equivalent firepower" and have it be part of the sphere (BS/BATS in every outer hex to be roughly equivalent to a SB) but I doubt that it would be worth the complexity,

By Steve Cole on Friday, September 24, 1999 - 12:38 am:

I kind of like the equivalent firepower thing.

And later on:

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:05 am: Edit

I had to go back and dig into the file.

The last best guess was that 25,000km would be dandy, providing a 7-hex cluster (3 hex diamater).

It has the functional equivalent of a starbase, which might very well be disassembled and installed on various hex sides.

It has 16 PDUs, with each PDU being 3 weapons bases, two sensor bases, and six fighters.

It's surrounded by an 11-hex diamater web anchored by asteroids.

And in an email message to me, he told me that the walls of the sphere were 1000 km thick. That means that the inside surface of the sphere is about 8x Earth.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Loren,
What publication might you be referring to???

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Loren, more like 8 1/2 to 8 3/4 time Earth but who's counting?

Whatever is at the center of something that small (no star is only 25KM in diameter) is completely artificial.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Ooooo..... 1000 km thick? No wonder nobody can make a dent in it.

It should be interesting to see what Loren comes up with. I think a combination of the two schools of thought is probably what happened.

The Tholians have most of the technical information but some of the more powerful items are locked away in special locations on the sphere and it's entirely possible that nobody knows where to find them anymore. Sort of what we do on earth in regards to archaeology. We know such and such could do something but don't nessicarly know how they pulled it off.

Given the size of the thing, particularly with walls that thick, it's possible to lose not only the computer where the information is stored, but entire starships. If a computer isn't networked to the rest of the sphere network for security reasons, it's even more likely that the exact location could have been lost.

I mean imagine searching a entire state, not only on the surface but for 1000km below it for something that could be as small as a bottlecap or CD.

Given that it was a capital, I'd say all the files stand a very good chance of being on the sphere SOMEWHERE. Intelligence services and research programs, given the Tholians xenophobia, were likely to have been centrally located. Just a matter of trying to find it 150-200 years after the fact.

Not that I like using TV show analogies, but if you think about what the Stargate: Atlantis premise is, I think it's a fair (but hardly exact) example of the same sort of problem. ie; you have a group that, while being fairly advanced on there own, has to go back and re-discover what their much older predecessors had found. I mean after 200 years of attrition and near constant warfare with the Klingons, it's not unreasonable that the Tholians may not have anyone who can precisely remember where the computers, labs, ect are anymore. Doesn't mean that the information isn't there; just that even if it's found it will take a good deal of research to re-implement.

In regards to moving the sphere; there is at least one scenario that involves moving a ship that has been trapped inside a web and I believe some comments on moving the sphere via the same method. Basically takes a long time to setup and isn't a practical weapon for tactical engagements.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Daniel: the problem with that premise is that it only took the Tholians 200 years to move it here. With TL14 medicine, their average lifespan is long enough that a good percentage of Tholians who were alive in the Home Galaxy would still be alive upon arriving "here".

So you need to explain how millions of Tholians suddenly forgot all this stuff, not to mention two TL levels.

(In passing, I should mention that the Tholian stats for GPD4 have been changed slightly from the old version: even after arriving in our galaxy, the Tholians retained TL14 in medicine, physiology, and so forth. All other facets of TL are at TL12 upon arrival, and Loren has a really good explanation for how all this happened.)

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Oh, and talk about synchronicity: a non-brown dwarf star only 16% larger than Jupiter.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Boy I wish I could spend more time on this. GPD, GK and GR have my schedule so full I can't even get to writing that new fiction piece I was ask to finish.

But I've got a pile of notes and a couple booklets so everything is in order for when I can dive into this stuff.

I think once the three GURPS products get done and I whip out the new fiction piece I'll ask SVC for no more new work until I get a chunk of GT done. This is due in 2006 and I want to have my end of it done way ahead of schedule.

Keep chatting here because you guys do occasionally remind me of details that need attention and help inspire lines of thought.

Gary, it more likely that no Tholians made the whole trip in one life time but their children were the ones that arrived in the New Galaxy. I find it highly unlikely that any major componants were lost somewhere in the sphere. Yes, a manual search of the sphere would be nearly impossible. But at TL14 or even the reduced TL12 such things are handled by computers. The Tholians have record of every last millimeter of the entire sphere. THere is nothing missing.

Tholians are highly educated individuals. There is about 2 billion of them all city collage level or above which is even higher than today maximum education due to the Tech Level.

All spheres are Capitols.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 04:31 am: Edit

Loren: 200 years is the average lifespan. I think I read something a few days ago about a woman who is 125 years old, so I think I can see some Tholians hitting 250.

And as for your GURPS workload: wanna trade? (insert very evil grin)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 11:40 am: Edit

I have to admit that I can't think of a reason why a TL14 civilization can't make a web caster or a particle cannon. If they don't lose the technological knowledge, then the only reason for the lack is production facilities. While I can see the problem with production facilities for ships (i.e. they just don't have anything that big), I fail to see how something small like the WC or PC isn't possible.

Depending on the timing, the only real explanation I can see is for the "big" Klingon assault to have been more successful than they ever knew. The Klingons did inflict massive damage, and the knowledge was indeed lost until the database of the 312th filled them in.

Just my unsolicited 0.02Cr

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Gary, can you send me the rules/info on how the TL14 medical affects their lifespan then, please. I was pushing for 120 - 150.

It's done and I'm not suggesting any changes but I think I'd better be up and clear on this aspect. It will affect much of what I write.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Mike West: The Tholians in our galaxy are TL12. Much was lost when they lost connection with the Will as a whole. There are some aspects of their technological base that they didn't have with them; ship building and weapons production are the main things missing.

When you understand the nature of the sphere it all falls into place.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Gary: The last information I had from SVC was Tholians living for 100 years. Granted I thought that seemed rather off for a silicon based life form and I didn't really agree with it, but that is what I was basing my conjecture on.

I think that one of the first things that needs to be done then, to explain the "why" is to work out exactly how long they DO live.

Loren: If the location is classified at a high enough level it won't nessicarily be in the database. After all, one of the easier meathods to locate somewhere in a computerized socity is to locate the relevent computer files first. If the location was not in the database for security reasons or was given a false identification, it's entierly possable to lose track of it if the relevent personnel are killed or die without passing on the info.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 03:00 pm: Edit

DKT

The Template has been updated. 100 years is the natural lifespan. Tholians have ratains some of the basic TL14 stuff including medical technology.

Being 400F chrystals they have high resistance to humanoid diseases but they have theri own problems. They are complex living beings and as such their bodies can and do fail in theri own unique ways. However, the Tholains have been a technological society for a very long time and have reifned their medical technologies very well.

I do have to be careful not to give away too much and also not get ahead of myself. This bit is just explaining what will appear in the GPD template.

As to missing things on the Sphere. The fact that some of theri technology is lost really has less to do with anything misplaces and more to do with it being left behind.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 03:24 pm: Edit

In short, high technology improves your changes of not aging (there is a die roll involved). At TL14, the only time you blow this die roll is by rolling an 18 on 3d6. That's one chance in 216 of aging.

It's more complicated than that, of course. But if you don't age, you're going to live longer.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 11:29 am: Edit

To understand technology loss, just think of how small a subset of the race you're dealing with.
How much human technology would have to be rediscovered if the only humans left were the ones who happened to be in a hotel at a gaming con when X event happened.
How many gamer doctors are there? Electrical engineers? Automotive mechanics? What if the surviving subset were taken from a random sampling of the populace instead of the usually-better-educated gaming crowd?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 09:55 pm: Edit

The big problem I have is particle cannons.

They are a TL12/TL14 race. They had, at one point, *working* examples of particle cannons. They have to have complete schematics, blueprints and whatnot on particle cannons. We know they can construct disruptors, phasers, and *ships*.

So, given all of that, how come they couldn't make particle cannons, but could steal an alien, less familiar, extra-galactic (to them) technology, and start pumping it out in massive quantities? If they can make disruptors, they can make particle cannons, regardless of whether they "brought" the technology with them or not.

I fully understand that the real reason is that when the Tholians were given disruptors, the game didn't have particle canons. That's not the point; I am wanting the in-game reason.

The same point holds for webcasters, too, though to a less extreme extent.

The only possible explanation I can see is that *after* the last particle cannon armed ship was destroyed, the Klingon assault on the homeworld did more damage than anyone knew/admitted, and the knowledge was lost at that point.