Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through February 19, 2014	25		02/19 11:15pm
	Archive through February 20, 2014	25		02/21 12:53am
	Archive through February 22, 2014	25		09/04 10:34pm

I would have thought that having the opportunity to show the Old King hulls the Klingons started off with would be part of what makes this era so interesting. Unless there is a moratorium on Old King designs overall, why not include them with the "manta-ray" Klingon armorclads when the time comes to present the Empire in this scale?


When it comes to aggressor planets, Prime Directive Federation notes the presence of Yeney'vn in hex 3108. The Yeney, a xenophobic Dunkar-like species, founded a pocket empire by using non-tactical warp ships to colonize four star systems in the vicinity of their home system. But they have been prevented from expanding any further than this by the Federation. It's not specified what year the Federation first encountered them, however.

Also, Vereb IV (in hex 2903) has the Wasp People, another quarantined species to watch out for. No-one is sure how long they had been raiding Federation colonies (in search of humanoid "food" for their larvae). Once Star Fleet uncovered what was going on in the region, a blockade was imposed on this system in Y119. The Wasp People supposedly have "primitive warp-powered starships", but it's not specified if this means they were at TL 9 or TL 10. Perhaps they had NTW hulls in this era, but managed to adopt W-era tactical warp by the time of the blockade?


Plus, there are the Bis'en, a Korlivilar-like species in hex 2806. The data in Captain's Log #45 notes that the Earth exploration ship Qian Xuesen made First Contact with Bisalia in Y41, and the Bis'en signed a trade and technology agreement with the UFP in Y60. They are on friendly terms with the Federation, but have thus far declined to join the UFP.

Although, it seems that they may not have designed any trans-light ships of their own. The earliest starship recorded in CL45 for them is a Terran warp-refitted frigate, which they "leased" in Y85 and purchased outright in Y90. So they may not have had any TL 9 hulls at all, which may have obliged them to rely on the Federation for their protection before then.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 01:27 pm: Edit

just so there is no confusion, this "manta ray Klingon ships" is what all of their ships including the D7 look like.

By Jack Bohn (Jackbohn) on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:25 am: Edit

The D-1, D-2, F-0?

I dug out NEXUS #8, which had an article on using the TFG Starfire minis in SFB; a few are assigned to Gorn sub-light ships. If they are still in production (or if ADB owns them) these could be the start of SSD design, or, if not, a pointer on what not to do. (Considering what the article says looks like a Snipe and Warbird, the designs should move far from these minis.)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 01:59 pm: Edit

It would seem that the "historical" templates for many factions' sublight navies already exist in most of the W-era ships from the three Y-modules.

But perhaps more of the Metal Express minis could be double-dipped for use in this era, if the ones not already listed for the Terrans and pre-ISC powers in SFB were still on the table? If not for the more "known" fleets, perhaps for some of the era-specific hulls (like the Klingons' Old King ships, or pocket powers like the Yeney).

To use one MX-based example: in terms of monsters, could the Solar Worm be re-purposed to represent the space serpents the sublight Andorians had to face in Prime Directive Federation? (It hasn't been specified if these creatures showed up in other star systems during the NTW era. But if it turned out that they did appear elsewhere, maybe they could serve as the equivalent of Space Boars, in being a "monster" scaled to the technology of the time period.)


To use a comparison from another era, I gather that there had been an early attempt at second-generation X-ships many years ago - but that the rules and SSDs involved were scrapped. Whatever the setup in Module X2 ends up looking like, it won't draw from any of that abandoned material (at least from what I've gathered from the various X2 discussions).

If I'm not mistaken on that, perhaps it may be as well to so the same here by leaving most of the older sublight SSDs to one side, and focus instead on reverse-engineering the W- and S-era hulls in the Early Years modules - and then deciding what game engine to use the Q-era hulls in.


And speaking of PD Feds, one note it makes is how things were not 100% rosy between the Vulcans and Andorians prior to the founding of the Federation. And it is suggested elsewhere that things did not quite run smoothly in the first few decades of the UFP's existence.

Perhaps there could be a series of "unfortunate incidents" that would give the Fed planetary fleets something to do when not worrying about the Orions or Romulans?

One interesting factor in this is how the Andorians may have fancied their chances, despite the technological advantages enjoyed by the sublight Vulcans. If war had broken out between the two prior to Y4, would the Vulcans have won, or might the Andorians have posessed the means of evening the odds somehow? (And would this mean that the Vulcan ships may not have had quite so much of an advantage against the Romulans as one might otherwise expect?)

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, September 04, 2015 - 10:34 pm: Edit

At this point I would say just use ACTA as the game engine for Sublight Wars.

Pros: been around for awhile, has a fan base, simple. No SSD's or EAF's required. Plays fast and ships blow up alot.

Cons: owned by Mongoose.

If ACTA not desirable, then I recommend Full Thrust.

Pros: Been around longer than ACTA, has many many fans, relatively simple, no EAF's required, plays faster than SFB and ships blow up alot. Variable movement systems, including vector for those who want it.

Cons: Has ship design system (can be ignored), uses SSD's.

By Mark Steven Hoyle (Markshoyle) on Friday, September 04, 2015 - 11:38 pm: Edit

Could always play Starfire and leave out the Jump ability.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 04:10 am: Edit

Starfire is a hot mess at this point. I wouldn't recommend it, even if ADB could get it.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 07:55 am: Edit

Didn't SVC WRITE starfire back in the day? And then sold it to David Weber?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 08:06 am: Edit

I designed Starfire when I was a partner in TFG-1. When I left TFG I took SFU a with me but left Starfire behind, and was too busy with SFU to work on it. TFG-2 then hired DW to run Starfire. When TFG-4 died, DW bought Starfire from the wreckage.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Again, what is wrong (or right) with letting the sublight ships move six hexes per turn when only sublight ships are on the board?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Isn't that really a question for a quantum phd? Just as a layman( and knowing up front that I am making an error in discussing the concept...

It is my understanding thatpt as one approaches the speed of light, you (the shp, of the pilot aboard said ship) will experience a time dislation/slipage. Further, as a ship approaches the SOL, the energy required gradually approaches infinity.

Sublight ships not using NTW would require huge energy capacity and no effective way to utilize that energy in combat as the dweapons would be limited to lasers and atomic missles.

Of course, I could be wildly off base.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 09:25 pm: Edit

The speed of light is 299,792 km per second or in SFB terms about 30 hexes per second. If ships move 6 hexes and turns are longer than 1 second, no ship would exceed 20% of the speed of light so relativistic concerns would be minor. Most of the practical effects can be covered in game terms with short ranges to weapons.

I like the old Mod Q design where the same SSD can be used for ships on the cusp of the transition: the nearly stationary sublight defense ships when faced with FTL opposition could also have fun little contests when the opponent is sublight. I would like to play the ships that history suggests should exist.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 09:32 pm: Edit

"(Q2.0) MOVEMENT
The scale of the game is changed to reflect the slower movement rates. A movement rate of 20 hexes per turn would represent the speed of light, but no ship in this game may move faster than six hexes per turn. Movement, functionally, is done exactly the same as in the normal game, but a separate chart has been provided. One unit of impulse power is sufficient for speeds up to three hexes per turn, and two units of impulse power is sufficient for speeds of four to six."
Atomic Missiles move at a speed of 12, so two hexes every turn when using the Six Impulse chart. My guess is that since the different impulse charts where eliminated in the move from Commander's to Captain's you would use the 32 impulse chart and give the sublight ships, when fighting other sublight ships a move of up to six Or maybe they would just keep the Six impulse chart. Nothing in the Q rules imply that the ships use relativistic movement at all.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Actually the length of a "TURN" has never been rigidly defined IIRC.

SVC can correct me, but I was under the impression that this is DELIBERATE so we can have more "action" in a turn than would be allowed if ships closed from range 620,000 km to 0 in one second (assuming both are speed 31)...

I imagine I remember someone (SPP?) calling this the fudge factor.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Oh yeah. Speed 1 is light speed. So 10,000 km in a turn means a turn is only 10,000 (km/turn) / 300,000,000 (km/sec) = 10/300,000 or 1/30,000 th of a second.

Can't do much role playing in that period of time...

I could be wrong tho.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 12:43 am: Edit

Supposedly 'time dialation' makes each turn appear to be about 1-2 minutes in crew subjective time.

Yeah. That's the ticket.

*trout slaps Grafton*

NO SCIENCE!!! To the House of Pain with you!!!

*sets booth to Manos:Hand of Fate*

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 02:13 am: Edit

Mike Grafton, see rule (A3.4) Game Scale for the answer to you question.


Garth L. Getgen

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 02:21 am: Edit

Umm, Mike. You do know that the effects of time dialation work in REVERSE of the needed effects?


Anyway, it's obvious (handwaves) that the effect causes (double talk hand wave) so that the (handwavium) drive can (handwave)...

Whats the phrase about any sufficiently advanced tech being indistinguishable from magic? Asimov?

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 02:40 am: Edit

---

Quote:

Again, what is wrong (or right) with letting the sublight ships move six hexes per turn when only sublight ships are on the board?

---

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 09:59 am: Edit

Not Asimov, Clark.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 11:30 am: Edit

When non sublight ships and sublight ships are on the board you are forced back to 32 impulses and sublight ships move at speed one just like the regular game. In what has been written so far for the sublight game, all of the ships uses either lasers or atomic misiles, no drones or plasmas. The sublight era is Y40-Y82, of course the information in Y1, Y2 and Y3 likely supersedes this. http://www.starfleetgames.com/sublight.shtml

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 02:55 pm: Edit

A potential sublight game could be expanded to include some of the early limited FTL weapons that showed up in the Y series.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, September 06, 2015 - 03:11 pm: Edit

There is a reference in the Y-modules of a Paravian sublight "quantum blaster", which may be what they used in place of the atomic missile.

Also, at least one "sublight" faction had access to Phaser-1s and special sensors in that era: the Vulcans.

Still, I would stick with my earlier preference to try and work out the Q-era Terran and Romulan fleets first (as in, to use them as the "test cases" with which to work up whatever game system were to be implemented), and only then look to other fleets (Vulcan, Andorian, Orion, etc) to see about how they might work in this context.

Not least since we have miniatures available for the Terran and Romulan ships of this era, which might help encourage playtesting of any would-be sublight product.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Sunday, September 13, 2015 - 02:33 am: Edit

Although the ships are moving slower-than-light,

1) We already know how they move in SFB terms -- At speeds of up to 1 SFB hex/SFB turn, with up to one 60-degree turn per SFB turn, movement requiring the application of 1 point of impulse energy. Which is not remotely Newtonian.

2) They've all got "non-tactical" warp technology hooked up to their drives, plus whatever inertial compensators and whatnot they need to not squash the crews when going to warp. Which gives plenty of excuses for non-Newtonian movement.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Monday, September 14, 2015 - 10:57 am: Edit

As far as weapons go you can throw in any you like, lasers and atomic missiles are just the most common.

Quantum blasters are one sublight weapon that are Paravian exclusive; you could throw in railguns, particle beams, and whatever else turns your head.

And I've always considered 'impulse drive' to be a reactionless super-science drive, given it has a FTL component attached.

So vector movement isn't necessary, or even required. Or wanted, IMO.