And here it is.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 08:58 pm: Edit

A few things first. I don't expect anything posted here to EVER be published, much less in Module Q, if it is ever done. Having said that, this thing has been in my d*!#@n head since Y2 came out, and I need to get it out.

Assumptions:

You will need a copy of SFB Basic and Advanced Missions, or the Master Rule Book.

Scale is 1000 km/hex. Don't worry how long a game-turn is. Wave your hands and yell a lot if it comes up. Yes, this makes planets Major Terrain Features.

Speed 32 is Warp 1 (1c). The maximum speed of ships and ordnance is speed 31.

The sublight era covers Y1-Y66. This works out, nicely enough, to Early Sublight (Y0-20), Middle Sublight (Y21-45), and Late Sublight (Y45-66).

Baseline weapons are lasers and atomic missiles. Other weapons include particle beams, mass drivers, nuclear torpedoe's, heavy laser cannon, maser cannon, and quantum blasters. And Vulcan phasers, of course.

There will be fighters. And carriers.

Sublight Feds will include the Terran Republic, the Andorian Star Empire, the Tellarite Alliance,the Alpha-Centauran Hegemon, the Rigellian Trade Association, the Vulcan Assembly, and (later) the Orion Co-Prosperity Sphere.

The Orions will be 'bad guys' until the Romulan War. Everybody in the Fed will have skirmishes and 'incidents' with each other, but no major conflicts. Unless SVC decides to retcon the history. Which would be...cool.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:00 pm: Edit

Could somebody post a copy of the timeline up to Y66 (when tac warp gets invented)? I don't have access to the books where I'm at, drat it.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:08 pm: Edit

Example of of a sublight ship:

The Romulan Warbird

YIS Y20 (IIRC).

8 impulse, 3 APR.

5 armor boxes/belts, giving it an Armor Factor (AF) of 5.

4 lasers FA, 4 atomic missile racks FA.

Sublight move cost: 1/3 Turn mode: B

This gives the Warbird max speed of 24. Note that its more agile in the sublight era.

Sublight ships do not pay for shields (obviously...with Vulcans the exception) or fire control. They DO pay for life support, as normal.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:09 pm: Edit

More to come later.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Link to Timeline: http://www.starfleetgames.com/documents/Timeline.pdf

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:25 pm: Edit

I'm unable to access any pdf files with the connection available to me at this time. But thank you.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Plasma torps, moving as they do at speed 32, would have a speed of 320 in this game, moving roughly 10 hexes per impulse.

A R-torp would have to travel 100 hexes before it worries about degrading from 50 or 35.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Ummm, yeah.

And they would have a speed of 32 hexes per impulse....given that their speed in this scale would be 1024.

Yes, I'm assuming a turn in Sublight Battles is the same as a turn in SFB, timewise. Ignore the math, and watch the pretty girls.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Mike, I don't know if this is a persistant URL. If it is not, then google the pdf link above and click on the html link.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:zKcEtaeryQkJ:www.starfleetgames.com/documents/Timeline.pdf+http://www.starfleetgames.com/documents/Timeline.pdf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Works fine. Thanks muchly.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 01:11 am: Edit

Seeking plasma torpedoes were not available until Y88. Before that, there were only bolts. Anyway, sublight sensors and fire control would not be able to track anything traveling at warp speed. Such things would seem to appear out of nowhere; without warp targeting, a Q-era ship is going to be helpless against anything with tactical warp.

With such a system, you would have to ignore anything resembling physics. The time scale is the least of your problems. All the hand-wavium that works when talking about combat at warp speeds falls apart when you start talking about combat at sublight speeds with sublight weapons.

The first issue is that in the real universe, information (other than quantum weirdness) travels at c. If c is speed 32, that means if you fire a laser, the beam travels toward its target at speed 32. Not that you would know where the target is. Each hex of range creates a 1-impulse delay before the image of your opponent reaches your scanners, so if you see your opponent 9 hexes away, then you are seeing where he was 9 impulses ago.

The second issue is momentum. SFB assumes that warp movement has no momentum, but sublight speeds have momentum. If you were going speed 10, it takes no power to maintain that. However, turning is going to take a lot of energy. And then it gets worse. As your speed increases, so will your movement cost, due to relativistic effects. At speed 24, your move cost would be double what it was at speed 0. At speed 30, it's 4x. Note that in the Star Trek universe, it is assumed that units not moving at warp speed usually don't go any faster than 0.25c; at that speed, relativistic effects are not a big deal for game purposes. That would make c = 128 hexes/turn, but opens the possibility of units traveling at speeds > 32. (Not that that is necessarily a problem...)

Of course, we are already ignoring things like the 3rd dimension to play SFB, so I guess it's not too much to ask to ignore physics. I'm sure you could come up with a playable system.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 01:32 am: Edit

How dare you include the words 'science' and 'Star Trek' in the same paragraph! To the House Of Pain with you! Are we not men?

*snickers*

In this, playability comes first, and 'science' comes a far distant second.

Besides, as far as I'm concerned, "impulse drive" is NOT a reaction drive. Its just as silly-putty science as 'warp drive'.

You want a realistic space combat game, go play Attack Vector.

And yeah, sublight ships are pretty much meat on the table for warp-speed weapons. Which is why the Jindarians are the Godzilla's of the era....

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 01:37 am: Edit

BTW, I don't know where you think ANYBODY in my Unpublishable Not-Mod Q Proposal is going to be using plsama torps. The Roms and the Gorns used lasers and missiles/nuclear torps in this era, while the Paravians used a shorter-ranged and less-accurate version of the quantum blaster you see on their sublight ships in Y1/Y2.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 11:22 am: Edit

Mike, are you just trying to expand the Q rules from the commanders edition?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Nope. If these rules bear any resemblance to the old Commnaders Q-rules, its just a coincidence.

For exmaple, here's how damage works.

I currently have 2 ideas for this.

Option A is for any given volley of a single type, you roll 2d6. If you roll a 6+, you penetrate the armor. Modifiers are minus Armor Factor of the target, and plus the Penetration Factor of the weapon.

Option B is you roll 1d6, plus the Pen Factor of the weapon. If you beat the targets Armor Factor, you penetrate.

Volleys that penetrate armor do internals equivelant to the volley, minus half of the targets Armor Factor. The first point of damage destroys an armor box/belt. This lowers the AF for later volleys in the same impulse/turn.

Volleys that do NOT penetrate do internals minus Armor Factor, HALVED. Drop fractions.Armor boxes are unaffected.

Some example weapon Penetration Factors:

Laser (pulse mode) : PF 0
Laser (beam mode) : PF 2
Heavy Laser cannon : PF 3
Nuclear Torpedo : PF 8
Particle Beam : PF 4-6 (lt4,med5,hvy6)
Fusion blaster : PF 8

Some weapons are designated 'armor smasher'.
Thses do damage ala SFB, ie, they destroy the armor boxes before they do any internals. 'Armor smasher' weapons include phasers, mass drivers, quantum blasters, and atomic missiles.

Shuttles: No suicide shuttles. No wild weasals. No armed shuttles (except for fighters). No scatterpacks. No drogues.

Obviously, no warp tacs.

An impulse tac has an energy cost equivelant to speed 6.

No HET's.

No mid-turn speed changes or decel due to damage.

Post more later.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 02:25 pm: Edit

re : plasma torps

There is no reason that pre-warp torps can't be sub-warp (or at warp) weapons.


As Mike said, playability is paramount over science, at least for his proposal (a sentiment which I applaud mightily)

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 12:02 am: Edit

Baseline weapon: Lasers

Used by almost all races (except the Hydrans), laser batteries were used in much the same role as phasers are used in SFB.

Rules: Unless otherwise stated, these lasers use the same rules as the warp-targeted lasers published in Mod Y1 (ie, power usage, capacitors, repair cost, etc)

Sublight lasers cannot track,target,or hit anything moving speed 32+.

Sublight lasers in pulse mode cannot damage intact shield boxes.

Sublight lasers have two modes of firing: pulse and beam.

Pulse Laser Damage Chart
Range 0-1 2-5 6-12 13-18 19-20
1 4 3 3 2 1
2 4 3 2 2 1
3 3 2 2 1 1
4 3 2 2 1 0
5 2 1 1 0 0
6 2 1 0 0 0

Penetration Factor for pulse lasers is 0.
Cost to fire is 1 energy point.

Beam Laser Damage Chart
Range 0-1 2-5 6-12 13-18 19-20
Hit 1-5 1-5 1-4 1-3 1-2
Damage 3 2 2 2 2

PF for beam lasers is 2.
Cost to fire is 1 energy point.

The decision to fire as either beam or pulse is made at the moment of firing.

Note that beam lasers CAN damage shields.

Baseline Heavy Weapon
Heavy Laser Cannon
Has a laser capacitor (like a standard laser, and adds to the ships other laser capacitors). Treated as a Phaser-4 for damage priority, cost to repair as Phaser-4.
Energy to fire is 2 points.
PF is 3.

Range 0-5 6-12 13-24 26-30
To-hit 1-5 1-4 1-3 1-2
Damage 10 8 6 4


Thoughts?

Yes, I noticed on the preview that my weapon charts are screwed up.
Don't know how to fix it, hopefully you guys can figure it out for yourselves. Sorry.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 09:05 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Besides, as far as I'm concerned, "impulse drive" is NOT a reaction drive. Its just as silly-putty science as 'warp drive'.

---

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Actually disregard I got the answer-thanks

Mike
Coming in late...but what is the per hex scale in this? In the original if memory serves me correctly speed 20 was = C, implying that 20 hex sublight = 1 hex SFB Warp, which made planets HUGE and brought on some real interesting battles in and around planets.
regards
Stacy

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 09:00 pm: Edit

I'm using 1 hex = 1000 km.

Speed 32 is Warp 1 (c).

Given that in this scale, a sublight ship can cover 30,000 km in one turn, this means one sublight turn roughly covers 3 SFB turns.

Given that this is supposed to be sublight-only (with a guest appearance by a time-travelling Fed CA...), it doesn't matter if it 'matches' SFB or not.

Yes, the scale makes planets Big Frakkin' Terrain Features. So be it.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Mike
Think about it, entire mega battles could be fought in the upper atmosphere of a Jovian planet. That would make for some cool battles!

I'm not complaining about big frakkin terrain features. Makes for an interesting battle. The fact that sub-light was originally a different scale was one of the reasons I liked it.

regards
Stacy

regards
Stacy

regards
Stacy

PS All this has been signed before. It will be signed again.

regards
Stacy

(See I warned you!)

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 11:58 am: Edit

Did anyone here play the sub-light (First Romulan War) rules in the 1979 Pocket and Designer's editions?

I played this, back in the early 1980s, but my gaming friends and I had to use some house rules for the speed and hit points of missiles and shuttles (missiles go the max speed of 6, are destroyed on one point of damage, shuttles go speed 4 and have two hit points).

I made SSDs of the Fed Light Cruiser, Fed Cruiser (a saucer with actual shields, but no secondary hull), Romulan Warbird, and Gorn Battleship (printed in Star Fleet Battles Expansion #1), edited as the rules described them. I also included a sublight EAF on the front of the SSD that resembles the brief ones in the Cadet Game, as the sublight ships have no shields (except for the Fed CC) and very little systems, this seems to work well.

Any insight to how your sub-light games went would be appreciated.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 02:30 pm: Edit

I played with the Commander's edition version of Section Q. It included the Fed CA (saucer-only, shields), CL; Klingon D6 (shields only); Kzinti CS; Romulan WB; Gorn BB. I even made the little SSDs, too.

My brother and I played a handful of games to see how it worked, focusing on duels. We played the rules straight up. What we found is that the total weapons uniformity, and limited damage variability meant that combat became fairly deterministic. Consequently, we lost interest pretty quickly.

We might have had a different impression had we done some squadron battles, but I doubt it. It is kinda like some of the drone fighters. You can call this one an "F-18", and that one a "Z-V", and the other one an "HAAS". But, when you get right down to it, you have a handful of damage points, a pair of Ph-3, and four drones. The cosmetic differences don't make up for the overall sameness.

By George Duffy (Sentinal) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 04:28 pm: Edit

Mike, (EDIT: the other one )

Just because I like to look at these things in tables, I thought I fix this for you.



Pulse Laser Damage Chart

Range	0-1	2-5	6-12	13-18	19-20
1	4	3	3	2	1
2	4	3	2	2	1
3	3	2	2	1	1
4	3	2	2	1	0
5	2	1	1	0	0
6	2	1	0	0	0

Penetration Factor for pulse lasers is 0.
Cost to fire is 1 energy point.


Beam Laser Damage Chart

Range	0-1	2-5	6-12	13-18	19-20
Hit	1-5	1-5	1-4	1-3	1-2
Damage	3	2	2	2	2

Penetration Factor for beam lasers is 2.
Cost to fire is 1 energy point.

The decision to fire as either beam or pulse is made at the moment of firing.
Note that beam lasers CAN damage shields. (Only in beam mode)


Baseline Heavy Weapon
Heavy Laser Cannon

Range	0-5	6-12	13-24	26-30
To-hit	1-5	1-4	1-3	1-2
Damage	10	8	6	4

Has a laser capacitor (like a standard laser, and adds to the ships other laser capacitors). Treated as a Phaser-4 for damage priority, cost to repair as Phaser-4.

Penetration Factor is 3.
Cost to fire is 2 energy point.