Did the Commander's Edition sub-light game come with full-page SSDs, or did you have to edit other SSDs to play it?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 06:50 pm: Edit

Would there be room for the Wars of the Resource Worlds in such a project as this?


In other words, the various conflicts involving the five pre-ISC planets from Y-175 (when the five species developed FTL travel) to Y10 (when the Veltressai worked out Tactical Warp).


(The only thing is that while some of the warp-driven ships in Y2 are based on sublight predecessors, others are not quite so.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 08:19 pm: Edit

You had to edit other SSDs.

Yes, the Resource Wars are completely appropriate for a prospective Module Q. The question, of course, is if there will ever be a Module Q.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Thanks, George.

Gary...sure. Why not?

And as Mike West has said, the sublight rules in the Designers Edition made for some very boring battles.

Which is why I'm doing this, as time allows..

Once I get my new laptop, you'll be seeing more stuff.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 10:42 pm: Edit

Are the designers edition sublight rules different than the commanders edition sublight rules?

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 09:02 pm: Edit

If memory serves, no.

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:22 pm: Edit

The Pocket and Designer's 1979 edition sub-light rules were one page long, the 1983 Commander's Edition I rules (G0.0 p.65-66) were two whopping pages long with its own Damage Allocation Chart and lots more ships to modify.

I am making SSDs of these ships with a modified Cadet Game Energy Allocation Form on the front. I will be sending these to the galacto-mavens of SFB for publishing approval.

Perhaps very few people are interested in this aspect of the original game, but I'm doing it.

The above sub-light rules are very interesting.

The only thing the SFB designers had to go on about the sub-light game was this:

"Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond our vessel a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago. As you may recall, this conflict was fought, by standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth."
- Star Trek TOS, "Balance of Terror"

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:33 pm: Edit

VII. THE SUB-LIGHT GAME (The First Romulan War) [page 26 Designer's Edition rules.]
The game is, functionally, an entirely separate and different game from the rest of STAR FLEET BATTLES. It represents the First Romulan War, which was fought approximately 100 years prior to the time shown in the rest of the game.

(55.0) MOVEMENT
The scale of the game is changed to reflect the slower movement rates. A movement rate of 20 hexes per turn would represent the speed of light, but no ship in this game may move faster than six hexes per turn. Movement, functionally, is done exactly the same as in the normal game, but a separate chart has been provided. One unit of energy is sufficient for speeds up to three hexes per turn, and two units of energy is sufficient for speeds of 4 to 6.

(55.1) SUB-LIGHT GAME MOVEMENT CHART
6 5 4 3 2 1
1 - - - - -
2 1 1 1 - -
3 2 2 - 1 -
4 3 - 2 - -
5 4 3 - - -
6 5 4 3 2 1

(55.2) The Romulan ship has a Turn Mode of 2, and the Federation ships have Turn Modes of 3.

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:37 pm: Edit

(56.0) COMBAT

(56.1) LASERS. The main weapon used in the Sub-light game is the Laser Beam. This is used just as Phasers are used in the normal game. The Laser, however, uses an entirely different Combat Chart. Each Laser, if it hits, will score one point of damage, regardless of the range, so the chart below simply shows the number required (on a die roll) to secure a hit. One unit of energy is sufficient to power all the Lasers on a given ship.

RANGE 0-1 2-4 5-7 8-10 11-15
Hit 1-5 1-4 1-3 1-2 1
Miss 6 5-6 4-6 3-6 2-6

(56.2) ATOMIC MISSILE COMBAT. Both the Warbird and the Federation Light cruiser carried nuclear-tipped missiles during the First Romulan War. These are not shown on the SSD's for the ship. Both players have two such launchers, and each launcher has 4 missiles. Each launcher may fire one missile per turn. These use the Drone Rules (20.0) except that the warhead strength is 4. Players should borrow drone counters from the Klingons and Kzintis, which are not used in the Sub-light game. [Drones: speed 8, Turn Mode 1, 3 turn endurance, 4 hit points. My gaming friends and I toyed around with missiles having a max speed of 6 (or speed 8 using an 8-segment turn with the ships still only going a max speed of 6) and 1 or 2 hit points, as well as faster shorter range missiles]

(56.21) Players should add two boxes to the SSD's to represent the atomic missile launchers. These would be destroyed on "Drone" hits. Use Type I Drones. [60.0 speed 8, endurance 3, warhead 12 (4), hits to destroy 4, space 1]

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:39 pm: Edit

(57.0) SHIPS AND SHIP SYSTEMS
At the time period 100 years prior to that shown in the game, much of the technology of the later time was not available. Also, the ships which were available in this game are rather limited.

(57.1) The following are not available in the Sub-light game and should be eliminated from any ships used in it: Probes, Photon Torpedoes, Plasma Torpedoes, Warp Engines, Tractor Beams, Transporters, Boarding Parties, Emergency Deceleration, Cloaking Devices and Shields.

(57.2) The Romulan Warbird is available in this game. Eliminate the systems listed in (57.1), and use the Phaser boxes as Lasers.

(57.3) The Federation Light Cruiser is available in this game. Eliminate the systems listed in (57.1), and use the Phaser boxes as Lasers. Add two additional APR boxes.

(57.4) An early version of the Federation Cruiser is available in this game. To convert the SSD for the CA to this type, eliminate the Secondary Hull and all the systems listed in (57.1), EXCEPT that the CA may operate its Shields at "minimum" setting. [(5.1.11) requires one unit of power provides five Shield boxes in each Shield with power]

(57.5) Use the scenarios listed in the normal game.

(57.6) Shuttles have a speed of 3 and a Turn Mode of 1, and one laser each.
[We fiddled around with fast shuttles packing one or two one-turn endurance missiles and having a light (short range) laser, but only two hit points (a shuttle taking an atomic missile and two lasers (or six lasers) to kill seemed wildly tough in the sub-light game)]

CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS
YEAR EVENT
40-46 The First Romulan War (between the Federation and the Romulan Republic).
45 Introduction of the Cruiser Design by the Federation.
46 The Romulan Ceasefire.

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Anyway, those are the 1979 Designer's Edition sub-light rules.

I pulled out the old pocket game and cadet game to bash out fast and fun games of SFB. Will playtest the sublight game when I finish the SSDs.

Anyone have electronic images (preferably .GIF) of the following SSDs (that I can modify as sub-light):
- Base Station
- Fed Heavy Cruiser CA
- Fed Light Cruiser CL
- Klingon Early D6
- Klingon Early Frigate FF
- Romulan Warbird WB
- Romulan Warhawk WH
- Kzinti Early Cruiser CS
- Kzinti Early Frigate FF
- Gorn Sub-light Battleship BB
- Gorn Destroyer DD

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Oddly enough I've been thinking about a Sublight Game lately. But I thought Modules Y included the sublight game, so I didn't figure it would be worth my time to pursue such a project.

I take it by Mike's proposal here they do not? (Yes, shame on me for not purchasing the Early Years modules yet.)

FYI... I have a copy of the Commander's Edition Volume I (c. 1983), so I can look a lot of those old things up too. I also have a copy of Designer's Edition if anyone needs a reference from it. (Scott, you have me beat on a copy of the Pocket Edition. Wish I had a copy.)

[Yes, I know I'm coming into this way late.]

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 07:42 pm: Edit

R. Brodie
Unless Y-2 is considerably more than I thought there's not true module Q - yet.
regards
Stacy

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Thanks, Stacy. I have no idea if SVC would be interested in a project like this, but I think it would be a fun academic (if nothing else) project to tinker with.

Note about scale: Rule (Q2.0) in the Commander's Edition states "a movement rate of 20 hexes per turn would represent the speed of light." If the amount of elapsed time in the Q-game is the same as in the "modern era" game, then a Q-hex is 500km wide. ("Mod era" hex is 10,000km wide, correct?)

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:07 pm: Edit

R. Brodie as ORIGINALLY presented for sublight rules that's correct. Which means terrain features such as planets are HUGE and would dominate a map. And a gas giant would fill MULTIPLE maps. Which actually makes for some interesting tactical situations.

Which by the way is one reason I'm a fan of the ORIGINAL sublight rules...

regards
Stacy

PS I keep saying original rules because there's been some talk of revising them so the play scale is the same as warp. Bad idea IMHO.

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Stacy, I agree with your PS. The Sublight Game should use a different scale because 1) it's more practical and 2) it makes for a different game than "Mod Era" SFB.

"Played a lot of SFB or FC lately and want a change of pace? Try fighting in the 'old days' with atomic weapons and sublight speeds! Space Wars, coming to a game store near you..." (or something like that)

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:14 pm: Edit

I have a set of sublight rules from the Commander's edition (1983) if there is a need to scan them.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:20 pm: Edit

How different are they from the ones posted on the sublight web page here: http://www.starfleetgames.com/documents/Sublight_Rules.pdf

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:24 pm: Edit

Two pages and some details fleshed out. Doing side-by-side comparison...

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:46 pm: Edit

[Please forgive any typos; I'm typing fast here...]

From COMMANDER'S STAR FLEET BATTLES © 1983 SVC/ADB (REV. 0):

(Q2.0) MOVEMENT
(Q2.2) HIGH ENERGY TURNS: Ships in the sub-light game can make high-energy turns. The cost is two units of impulse energy; the chance of breakdown for all ships is 5-6; standard +2 modifiers apply for the first HET each scenario by each ship. The effect of breakdown is three internal hits randomly distributed on the ship.
(Q2.3) TACTICAL MANEUVERS: Ships in the sub-light game can make up to three tactical maneuvers in each turn. Each can turn the ship up to three hex sides, and each costs one point of impulse power.
(Q2.4) DISENGAGEMENT: Ships in the sub-light game can only disengage by distance.
(Q2.5) ERRATIC MANEUVERS: Ships in the sub-light game may not use EM.
(Q2.6) OTHER: Ships in the sub-light game do not pay for fire control or life support.

(Q3.0) COMBAT
(Q3.3) ELECTRONIC WARFARE: Players may use the electronic warfare rules (D6.3) in the sub-light game if they wish. Fighters and atomic missiles are presumed to have three points of ECCM.
(Q3.4) SPECIAL DAMAGE RULES: Ships in the sub-light game move using impulse power exclusively. In the sub-light game, two "impulse engine" hits are required to destroy each impulse engine box on the SSD. The first such hit is marked with a slash. The second hit on that box is marked by making the slash an "X" or any other convenient means. A "half destroyed" impulse engine functions normally, but only one impulse engine box per ship can be considered "half destroyed" at a given time.
(Q3.5) DAMAGE ALLOCATION CHART: The following special DAMAGE ALLOCATION CHART can be used for the sub-light game. It is used in the same manner as the standard DAC, but uses only one six-sided die.

1	Armor	Hull	Sensor	Control	Any Wpn	Excess Damage
2	Armor	Hull	APR	Impulse	Any Hit	Excess Damage
3	Armor	Hull	Shuttle	Laser	Control	Excess Damage
4	Armor	Hull	Lab	Missile	Control	Excess Damage
5	Armor	Hull	Btty	Impulse	Any Hit	Excess Damage
6	Armor	Hull	Scanner	Control	Any Wpn	Excess Damage

(Q4.0) SYSTEMS AVAILABLE
(Q4.1) [Some ships had limited shields]
(Q4.2) REPAIR: Ships in the sub-light game can use damage repair. During each turn, one unit of power can be allocated to damage control. This produces a number of "repair" points equal to the highest undestroyed number on the damage control track (at the start of that turn). Points are produced in the Initial Activity Phase using energy allocated during the Energy Allocation Phase and can be used to repair certain systems noted below. While points can be accumulated over several turns, they must be accumulated toward repair of a specific (i.e. one) destroyed box on the SSD. The repair of a system is complete when the required number of repair points has been accumulated. Left-over points on the final turn of accumulation can be used for the repair of another system. Completed repairs take effect in the Final Activity Phase of the turn in which the repair points are produced. ONLY systems (boxes) destroyed prior to the start of a turn can be repaired during that turn.
(Q4.21) SUB-LIGHT GAME DAMAGE REPAIR COST CHART

Cost	System
1	Damage point on shuttle or fighter
5	Atomic missile launcher
6	Battery or lab
10	Laser
15	½ destroyed impulse engine
20	APR or bridge (any) or sensor or scanner
30	Impulse engine

- Repaired missile launchers must still be reloaded using (Q3.25). It is possible to perform repairs during a sub-light scenario (but not in the normal game) due to the different time scale. Hill and armor cannot be repaired during a scenario.
(Q4.3) DAMAGE CONTROL BETWEEN SCENARIOS: The ships in the sub-light game may use the procedures of (D9.4) between scenarios.

[TO BE CONTINUED...]

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 10:01 pm: Edit

[COMMANDER'S STAR FLEET BATTLES © 1983 SVC/ADB (REV. 0) CONTINUED...]

(QR0.0) SHIPS AVAILABLE
(QR1.1) SHUTTLECRAFT: Sub-light shuttles have a speed of three, a turn mode of 1, and one laser each (360º). The laser is limited to a range of five hexes. Sub-light shuttles are destroyed by the second laser hit point. These shuttles can be used for suicide, wild weasel, and scientific research.
(QR1.2) BASE STATIONS: A version of the base station is available for use. Use the base station SSD, eliminate the listed systems, add 20 armor, add 4 atomic missile launchers (total of 48 reload missiles available), change all phasers to lasers.

(QR2.0) FEDERATION SHIPS
(QR2.1) CRUISER: ["...add two atomic missile launchers. Turn mode is 2."]
(QR2.2) HEAVY CRUISER: [...four APR "carried in pods of two boxes each," two shuttles, four atomic missiles, and Turn Mode 2... "When the ships were converted to use warp power, these pods were removed, which is why the CA has no APR."]

(QR3.0) KLINGON SHIPS
(QR3.1) EARLY D6: An early version of the D6 was available. Eliminate the systems listed in (Q4.1), add four APR, change phasers to lasers, change disruptors to atomic missile launchers. Turn mode is 2. The early D6 can operate its shields at minimum level.
(QR3.2) EARLY FRIGATE: An early [sic] frigate design was available. To approximate this ship, take the SSD for the F5, eliminate the systems listed in (Q4.1), add two APR, change phasers to lasers. Turn mode is 1. The early F5 had no shields, but had five boxes of armor. This approximates an early frigate design that was scrapped after warp engines were developed.

(QR4.0) ROMULAN SHIPS
(QR4.1) ROMULAN WARBIRD: [...Turn mode is 1.]
(QR4.2) ROMULAN WARHAWK (Volume II): An early version of the Warhawk was used by the Romulans during this period. To make this conversion, take the Warhawk SSD and eliminate the systems listed in (Q4.1). Replace the phasers with lasers. Add two atomic missile launchers. Turn mode is 1. The Warhawk carries 5 fighters and 15 extra atomic missiles (in addition to its own reloads). The deck crews are capable of loading five missiles (on on each of five fighters) each turn.
(QR4.3) ROMULAN EARLY FIGHTER (Volume II): The Warhawk carried an early version of the "Gladiator" fighter. It moves at a speed of nine (two hexes in impulses 2, 4, and 6) and is otherwise the same as a sub-light shuttle. It has one laser (FA) limited to a range of five hexes and carries one atomic missile. Players should adapt the trans-light rules for other functions of these fighters.

(QR5.0) KZINTI SHIPS
(QR5.1) EARLY CRUISER: This ship was an early design scrapped after warp power became available. To approximate it, take the SSD for the strike cruiser, eliminate the systems listed in (Q4.1), add three APR, change the phaser-I's to lasers, change each pair of phaser-III's to one laser (two in the center), replace the drone racks with atomic missile launchers, add ten armor. Turn mode is 2.
(QR5.2) EARLY FRIGATE: This ship was basically identical to the current frigate (with the changes noted here), and the first warp-powered ships in Kzinti hands were early frigates converted to the current design. Take the SSD for the frigate, eliminate the systems listed in (QR4.1), add one APR, change all phasers to lasers, change all drone racks to atomic missile launchers, add five armor. Turn mode is 1.

(QR6.0) GORN SHIPS
(QR6.1) GORN SUB-LIGHT BATTLESHIP: This ship type was used only during the first Gorn-Romulan War, when all ships were sub-light. Unlike other fleets, the Gorns scrapped these ships rather than having them built to use warp technology. The SSD represents the ship equipped with lasers and atomic missiles. Turn mode is 3.
(QR6.2) GORN DESTROYER: A ship similar to the Gorn destroyer was used in the first Gorn-Romulan War. To approximate this ship, using the SSD for the Gorn Destroyer, eliminate all systems listed in (Q4.1), add five armor, change all phasers to lasers, add two atomic missile racks. Turn mode is 2.

SUB-LIGHT GAME -- MASTER SHIP CHART

Race	Class	Crew	BPV	Turn	Rule
Fed	CA	20	100	2	QR2.1
Fed	CL	14	80	2	QR2.2
Klin	D6	18	100	2	QR3.1
Klin	FF	10	80	1	QR3.2
Rom	WB	15	80	1	QR4.1
Rom	WH	17	90	1	QR4.2
Rom	Ftr	-	5	1	QR4.3
Kzn	CS	20	110	2	QR5.1
Kzn	FF	10	80	1	QR5.2
Grn	BB	30	110	2	QR6.1
Grn	DD	12	75	1	QR6.2
	Shtl	-	2	1	QR1.1
	BS	30	100	-	QR1.2

[That's all he wrote...]

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 10:03 pm: Edit

The rest of the rules are more or less as published in the Designer's Edition rules (.pdf).

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Stacy, if the 500km wide Q-hex holds up, Earth would have a diameter of a fraction over 25 hexes! And Jupiter would have a diameter of over 285 hexes!

So let's see... starships warp in and fight over a strategic feature. Battle fleets fight for orbital dominance, then troop ships come in to land armored troops. Or do they just nuke their targets from orbit (making last-ditch defensive efforts on the surface the SFB equivalent of Missile Command)?

Cool.

By Stacy Brian Bartley (Bartley) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Jupiter would just be a WALL at one end of the map. There would probably be 10+ hexes in depth in which the atmosphere was thin enough to not crush the ships.

I really think it would make a much more fun game than keeping the scale the same.

The moon would be pretty big too.

regards
Stacy

By R. Brodie Nyboer (Radiocyborg) on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 10:46 pm: Edit

The moon would be just about 7 hexes in diameter.

There would definitely be a whole 'nother perspective on things in this game.