By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 01:04 am: Edit

Emergency emergency.

Prepare to ship web mom for an emergency grammarian deployment

The queen's English must not be sacrificed upon modern mores.

By Patrick H. Dillman (Patrick) on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 01:26 am: Edit

Eh, no worse then the German Spelling Reform. I'm still partial to eszett. (Why doesn't Discus recognize extended ASCII?)

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 09:29 am: Edit

If the Folks in Birmingham won't listen to Lynne Truss, they certainly won't listen to me. One can only pity the literate inhabitants of city.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 10:22 am: Edit

PHD,

I'd actually like to bring back Eth and Thorn; it would reduce some ambiguities, and return two classical English characters back to their rightful places.

By Patrick H. Dillman (Patrick) on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Joe: I did not know that the use of the Y character to substitute for the thorn in type sets was the reason for the (often mistakenly pronounced) Ye, as in "Ye Olde Tavern".

Learned something new, thanks!

(BTW, the correct pronounciation of Ye is the same as "the".)

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Þe Olde Tavern?
Very cool

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Pat,

Yeah, pretty neat, huh? I learned that a couple years ago, and I've wanted Eth and Thorn to come back ever since.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 10:02 pm: Edit

English seems to have as its hallmark that it absorbs useful words. I took French in high school and in college because English literary works would drop in très chic French phrases. What I found was that it helped me a great deal when it came time to read Chaucer in the original Middle English.

I had a wonderful prof for Chaucer. He made us learn to read Chaucer out loud, because that way we would experience how the people of the time period would have experienced the work. (Literacy wasn't all that high back in the late 1300s, so someone had to read the work to the family.)

When I wasn't sure about pronuncation, I went with a more French take on the word, and usually I was right.

But then, my mother had me reading Chaucer in Middle English when I was no more than 10. (She did limit my reading selections to the "cleaner" choices of Chaucer's stories.)

And that is how I came to appreciate the living language that is "our" English. It changes more rapidly perhaps because of the speed of communication, but it is ever in motion. Who would have ever used the verb "google" ten years ago? (Google hadn't even pulled its first April Fool's joke then!)

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 11:10 pm: Edit

As I learned a small amount of German, I found it interested to see the cognates and related words; at it's core, English is a Germanic language, heavily influenced by old French, Latin, and old Norse.


Speaking of pronounciation, it's interesting seeing words in German that are similar to their English counterparts, and getting a better understanding for the spelling of those Germanic words in modern English.

The way we pronounce the word "light" for instance (like "lite") is much different than it used to be voiced. It was more like leehhhgt (multiple h's to indicate that the this was voiced for an extended time); when compared to the modern German licht (pronouced leehhhkt or leesht), you can easily see the similarity. Of course, both come from the Latin "lux", but clearly, the English form is more of a direct decendent of Old High German than from Latin (whereas Spanish "luz" (pronouced loose) comes directly from Latin.


Another example:

bridge (breed-ge) vs. bruecke (broo-ke)


It's interesting too how old Norse words came into English as equivalent (or nearly equivalent) to the Old English words, because they came via trade between equal trading partners (Old English craft compared to Old Norse skill), as opposed to Old French words which came as the language of the master and in almost all cases have the superior import to the older English words (as Jean alluded to in the other thread).

The serfs raised koh (cows) and feed boeuf (beef) to the Franch masters.
The serfs raised pigs and feed porc (pork) to the Franch masters.

sheep/mutton
(about the only exception I can think of is lamb/agneau (pronounced ahn-YO)
English word for the name of the animal, and French name of the animal used for the meat.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Continuing on linguistics:

Dr. Tolkein was a linguist. He loved language, and in particular, the rolling nature of Welsh (Old Saxon word Welas meant "foreigner" which is what the invading Saxons called the Celts in what was the Celts own country) and Finnish. He set out to create his own language. He quickly realized that language is a function of the culture and history of the people that speak it. So he set out to create a people and their history....

...and thus, the Elves were born (which he originally called gnomes).

He ran into a problem in that he created virtually immortal beings in the Elves, and as a result, realized their language would be fairly static, since they live so long; they wouldn't forget how to pronounce things, and once they'd named everything, there would be little growth.....

...and hence, the Elves were split into the Moriquendi, the Noldor, and the Sindar.

Still, it was not enough. He needed outside influences to affect the language....

and hence, the Dwarves were created, and Man added to the picture.

The rest, as they say, is history.

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 12:52 pm: Edit

I'm a Latin-ophile myself, having taken some of that in high school, and it stuck better than the Russian I took after that.
Lots of Russian words come from German, by the way, as it was usually Germans and/or German books who brought technology to Russia.

I've seen a t-shirt Jean may want: "English doesn't borrow from other languages. English forces them into dark alleys, hits them over the head, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 01:38 pm: Edit

I always had Joe pegged as a cunning linguist.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 01:46 pm: Edit

(smile)

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 03:38 pm: Edit

You guys better watch your linguistics or Jean's gonna get out her #9 Griswold.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Ryan,

Pinot Noir. Pardon my French

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, February 05, 2009 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Lee, the t-shirt sounds WONDERFUL! (drooling face)

By Howard Bampton (Bampton) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 12:18 am: Edit

Err. Should the word "t-shirt" and a puddle be in such close proximity?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 12:34 am: Edit

Howard, don't be shy, come out and ask, "Is that a wet T-shirt, Jean?"


Garth L. Getgen

By Tony L Thomas (Scoutdad) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 12:36 am: Edit

It's not the T-shirt you need to be worrying about, 'cause everyone knows that...


Librarians have tight buns...

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 07:01 am: Edit

I needed a smile after Baby Car went to the Car Doctor and the Car Doctor passed the bill to me!
By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 07:34 am: Edit

You know, I never know which is worse -- when I take my car to the shop and say, "hear that funny noise?" .... is it worse when they say, "What noise?", or when they say, "Yeah, THAT noise."


Garth L. Getgen

By Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 10:33 am: Edit

"librarians are novel lovers"

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 11:14 am: Edit

====
Jean, that shirt (or similar ilk) can be found at
most cons, good luck hunting.

By Tony L Thomas (Scoutdad) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Trade cars with ya, Jean.
Last week, the Cap'n Crunch truck went...
Ker-THUNK!
badadadadadadadadada....
Pbbbbbbbbbbbbt!
Then it died...

I coasted to a stop, got out, heard fluid gushing underneath the vehicle, got down and looked...


Hey! there's not supposed to be a 2-inch long piece of metal sticking out of my oil pan...and oil shouldn't be pouring out around it...

Tomorrow - they put the new engine in it...
Monday, I shell out more than Origins is going to cost me...

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Tony:

Holy Mother of Pearl!!!! What is it with the Thomas's and vehicles? I'm starting to think we need to retain the services of an exorcist. Good to know that you're OK though.

Cheers,
Jason

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Tony, Reminds me of something that come down from the Wing Safety office a couple years ago. This USAF 1LT said he was driving down the highway when he heard a loud bang. He moving over to get to the right-hand lane to check it out when the dash board warning lights all lite up, but the engine was still running. That's when he noticed the end of a four-foot crowbar sticking out of his hood ... pointing right between his eyes. Once he got the car stopped, the engine died. The included photo showed the crowbar had gone thru the battery and alternator. An inch either direction, and it might not have stopped where it did.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Tony, I'm just glad you are ok! Baby Car says that the Cap'n Crunch truck needs to come to Origins and it'll get a stern car to truck talk.

But then, Baby Car is feeling its oats--it has new tires with most of the nubblies still attached!

By Tony L Thomas (Scoutdad) on Friday, February 06, 2009 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Part of it is the fact that I put over 100K miles a year on them for work...
Even with regular maintenance - that's quite a few miles...

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Thursday, February 28, 2013 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Cleaning up one's office sometimes yields jewels:

A CURSE AGAINST STEALERS OF BOOKS

For him that stealeth a book from this library, let it change into a serpent in his hand & rend him. Let him be struck with palsy, & all his members blasted. Let him languish in pain crying aloud for mercy, & let there be no surcease to his agony till he sink to dissolution. Let bookworms gnaw his entrails in token of the Worm that dieth not, & when at last he goeth to his final punishment, let the flames of hell consume him forever & aye.

Monastery of San Pedro, Barcelona

++

Who folds a leafe downe
ye divel toaste browne
Who makes marke or blotte
ye divel roaste hotte
Who stealeth thisse booke
ye divel shall cooke.

-- from the bookplate of one C. J. Peacock

++

Whoever steals this book
Will hang on a gallows in Paris.
And, if he isn't hung, he'll drown.
And, if he doesn't drown, he'll roast.
And, if he doesn't roast, a worse end will befall him.

from Marc Drogin's Anathema!: Medieval Scribes and the History of Book Curses (1983).