Archive through May 08, 2012
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Company-Conventions-Stores-Ideas: About the Company: TRIBBLES vs KLINGONS: Archive through May 08, 2012
By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Oh, I know my monitor is set to display things fairly dark because I can't take it too bright. But I have alternate setting I can check against.

So taking that into account, I'm comparing between SVC's version and yours, Xander. I think somewhere between would be great. I think starships have to necessasarilly be well lit.

The other factor is what actually comes out of the presses which I've found rarely matches the image on a monitor. For instance, Captain's Log almost always turns out lighter. I've learned to compensate some.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 05:40 pm: Edit

The puffballs seem to be designed for little girl bracelets with a hole through them, so you could add a weight but I'm not sure it would be enough to matter.

The Klingon is 28mm heroic. I can get a ruler and go measure one if you want.

The cat is one we borrowed from Leanna's collection of pewter animals and fantasy stuff. The Reaper familiar is the one I said we had a quote on.

Xander's map IS too dark. It's NOT a monitor calibration issue. It's just VERY dark. That said, we want to run some tests (to see if the figures and the puffballs show up against it) and I think we want him to turn the walls from the black I used to steel gray. But we're not going to press tomorrow so we can let it cook for a few days.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 05:42 pm: Edit

1.25 inches or 32mm.

By Mark S. Hoyle (Resartus) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Has anyone noted:

"It is a Klingon ship afterall"

Aren't they dark to begin with

By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:24 pm: Edit

There's how the fictional ships would look, and there's what is best for a playable surface to boardgamers (including your Aunt Tilly, with her poor eyesight). As SVC noted, this is far from press and I'm sure it will get dialed-in appropriately, if the Xanderized look is chosen.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:28 pm: Edit

I noted that starships need to be well lit, IMO.

Perticularly Klingon rear hulls where they really don't want the subjects hiding in the shadows.

By William Stec (Billstec2) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:30 pm: Edit

I am liking Xander's map.

Can we get as a stretch goal plasticized maps? I think they'd hold up to the metal miniatures on them.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:36 pm: Edit

I think SVC covered the topic, already, and as Will noted, this is very much a work in progress.

The overall style, I think, will stick (for my proposal, anyway, which may not even get a funding level necessary to make worthwhile for ADB to do)...but many details are in the air. Heck, it'll take me about 5 minutes to add three lights to it and re-texture the walls with a more metallic look instead of solid black - can shoot that over to ADB tonight and maybe get the page updated so this discussion can move onto more interesting things about the game design and play.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Well, we don't need to talk about game design and play very much. I got that covered. We need to talk about stretch goals and support levels.

By Rick Smith (Rick_Smith) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:47 pm: Edit

The gameboard could be done in a 3D program. With rendering software, different lighting can be applied to illuminate things like ceiling lights, panels glows, floor lighting, etc. These can quickly and easy be dialed back (or made even brighter) and then the scene is re-rendered. Textures can be added and changed very quickly. Once satisfied, the entire scene can be rendered from above. The lighting and objects will be much more realistic and, most importantly, more to what current boardgame fans have come to expect from current production models.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Something to consider is that the the more colorful map might be a better fit for the humorous tone of the game and more appealing to women, children & general gamers not interested in wargames. Same goes for multi-colored tribbles, non-canonical but visually appealing.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:53 pm: Edit

Quote:

The gameboard could be done in a 3D program.


I think you'd pretty quickly find that the cost of making every different shaped table, storage container, bin, chair, etc as fully realized 3d objects; placing them in a 3d composition; and then placing all the necessary hundreds of lights...

...will be quite a bit more time consuming (thus, expensive) than the design I proposed, not that much different looking, and not materially easier to work with (adjusting lighting levels for hundreds of light source objects is just as easy to do in Photoshop as it is in Blender/Maya/3dsMax/etc).

I do actually have a bit of experience in 3d work, I just tend to work in Photoshop more because it's much faster.

By Rick Smith (Rick_Smith) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:54 pm: Edit

If that's the case, then the board shouldn't be this colorful:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/images/Project%20T/Deckplans/Deck_8_scale.jpg

The colorful tribbles will get lost on the colorful board. Subdued colors would be the way to go.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Quote:

a better fit for the humorous tone of the game and more appealing to women, children & general gamers not interested in wargames



FWIW, I imagine ADB's target market for this one is the same as the 'Zombies!!!' game (since the gameplay is extremely similar).

That one is not exactly a "women and children" game, but more of a "non-gaming* guy, after-work-at-the-office-or-pub, sports-fan" type.

* I, of course, refer to non-'real games', here - boardgames, including traditional wargames but also the lighter fare, or maybe even PC games. This target audience frequently DOES play games, but exclusively on the XBox or PS3.

By Rick Smith (Rick_Smith) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Hi Xander. Not really. At least not from my experience. The amount of layers you need to juggle in PS is massive.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Perhaps camouflage is the secret to tribbles success as a species (well that and the born pregnant thing). Not seeing that tribble sneaking up on you is just part of the game.

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Perhaps an Horta expansion as a strech goal?

http://tinyurl.com/773nkkm

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 07:34 pm: Edit

I think Tribbles vs. Klingons shares more in common with The Awful Green Things from Outer Space http://www.sjgames.com/awfulgreen/ than it does with Zombies!!! and that is a compliment (Awful Green Things is a riot to play, my gaming group found Zombies!!! disappointing).

Like Tribbles vs. Klingons, Awful Green Things has a is a great strategy game with a humorous premise and bright, colorful artwork. I think the darker gameboard would be at odds with the tone of the game, though it would be a good fit for a zombies expansion.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Uhhh...this doesn't have anything in common with The 'Awful Green Things from Outer Space' (hereafter TAGTfOS), especially vs 'Zombies!!!':



In fact, about the only thing that TvK and Z! do not have in common is the idea of the cat (although one of the expansions for Z! had something like that, a I recall) and that the board layout is fixed rather than build-as-you-go (a pretty big change, as how the board played out in Z! made huge variations in how winnable or hopeless the game was). At least in the 'board layout already determined in advance' there is ONE thing that TvK has in common with TAGTfOS...but I can't think of anything else.

Something TvK does have that is specifically different from either of the other games (IIRC) is that the movement is fixed...no variable movement (via dice rolls or other means).

By Paul Scott (The_Rock) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 07:52 pm: Edit

The gameboard that goes up when the website is released to kickstarter does not need to be dark, but it does need to be professional and "artistic" by the standards of most Eurogames.

IMO, the difference between the engineering version and the artistic version is at least 10-fold in terms of pledges even though they are functionally equivilent (and the engineering version is arguably superior in terms of ease of play - but ease of play won't mean a thing if people don't buy it because the art is not to expectations). Before launching to kickstarter I would finalize a "Xander version."

Also, the tribbles themselves are an issue, to me. At a minimum you cannot suggest "100 alien miniatures" and then provide 100 neon puffballs. IMO, all these minatures should be plastic, before going to kickstarter. Also, the klingons should be distinct minis and should have distinct characteristics (even, as I have not seen the game mechanics, if those characteristics are just art and color text). You don't have to spend the cash for plastic injection moulding right off, you just need to find someone with a 3D printer to print off a set of decent looking minis. I have a friend who has one, so if you don't find better options, just make the print files and let me know and I will have a set made for you.

Finally, the successful kickstarter games are the ones that have started polished and "in final." It is one thing to offer to move (such as in Ogre) to nice and finished smaller uera dice to larger acrylic dice as a stretch goal. I think it is a very different thing to move from one hero model to six (and then if we reach six we don't have to paint them!).

This is intended as constructive critism from someone who will end up supporting your kickstarter regardless of what you put up there, but who would like to see you succede. What I saw today, no matter how good the actual game play, would not sell. There is a quality standard expected from people who put down $50-100 for a Eurogame and that quality is what needs to go up from the start on kickstarter.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 08:00 pm: Edit

Xander,

I concede that you are correct as far as gameplay goes. However, the premise of AGTfOS (Starship overrun by zany fast-breeding aliens)is very similar to Tvk as is the tongue-in-cheek tone. Either map will work as far as gameplay goes, but I think the more colorful map is a better match for the tongue in cheek tone.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 08:05 pm: Edit

I dunno, I do kinda like the puffballs. FWIW, I agree that plastic would be preferred for the Klingons over pewter (by miles and miles and miles - I have not one boardgame in my shelf that has pewter or metal parts, they are all plastic or cardboard); and maybe if you cannot do plastic (the pledge levels aren't there), then cardboard cut-out stands would work. I'm just not a fan of metal minis for a boardgame, personally. And it can't be cheap to ship metal...

Quote:

What I saw today, no matter how good the actual game play, would not sell. There is a quality standard expected from people who put down $50-100 for a Eurogame and that quality is what needs to go up from the start on kickstarter.



And I think this is where we are getting bit, some, by the sucess of OGRE setting a tone for all of Kickstarter.

I don't think (SVC will surely correct me if I'm wrong), that ADB is looking for a $100 game, here. This is aimed very much straight at the 'Zombies!!!' market, which has an MSRP of $29.99. A more realistic funding model would be something like the card game 'Fleet', which raised nearly $40,000 with just over 1,000 backers...many pledging at just the 'buy one copy of the game' level ($25).

Still, that said...well, look at the 'Fleet' Kickstarter page. That's, IMHO, the target for presentation quality. And I think ADB is fully aware the project isn't there, yet (which is why the posting is internal, for discussion, and not on Kickstarter at the moment...)

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Plastic Tribbles?! Ugh!!

The ideal miniature of a puffball IS a puffball.

I feel more strongly about this than I do the maps.

By Rick Smith (Rick_Smith) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 08:12 pm: Edit

Paul, you hit the nail on the perverbial head.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Potential pledge level improvements:

- I'm not sure there is a gameplay need to have all three decks of the D7 crew-walkable portion of the rear hull. Maybe just have 2 of them in the base game...adding the third deck at a given pledge level. (Or maybe adding the boom at a certain pledge level, or shuttle deck at a different pledge level) These would be 'general improvements to the product for everyone' changes to avoid needing special rules and getting different gameplay experiences, so would need to be priced accordingly.

- 'linen texture' board for the game. If you've played many modern Euros, you'll know what this is...the vagely textured feel to the tiles, for example, in 'Carcassonne' or 'Settlers of Catan'. Hardly necessary, but a nice touch.

- Thicker cardstock for the action cards

- Hire Mark Evans to do the character or card art (he did the covers for the two 'Federation Commander' base games, as well as 'GURPS: Federation'). The more "realistic" style vs a more "comic-book" style is generally pretty well received (but I'm guessing, given how little work he has done for ADB and only for 'major' projects, that he's relatively expensive)

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