Sorry, but there won't be a bundle deal (and even if there were, it wouldn't be a good enough discount to matter, less than the cost of one pack, and six for the cost of 5.67 doesn't seem woth the hassle ). The way the "wargame marketplace" works does not enable bundle deals. The retailers don't want to bother with "buy Y1, Y2, and Y3 at the same time and save 10%" because there is simply no way to process that through the wholesale network. Because of this, manufacturers cannot offer them to direct customers (not without a rebellion by retailers that would put the company out of business). It's not going to happen, for just that reason. I cannot recall us ever doing a bundle deal, and I can recall explaining many times why this or that bundle deal wasn't going to happen. One might say that the fleet boxes and squadron boxes amount to a bundle deal, but the discount is in the cost of packaging (not relevant here).

Anyway, Scott, I'm sorry that you weren't reading this the first time or two it was explained, but that is the explanation and it's not going to change.

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 06:59 am: Edit

Thanks for explaining all that to me.
I am sorry to hear that 90 series booster packs lost money. FC: Booster Pack #91, the Ships of Franz Joseph, was a favorite of mine.

I am sure that the effort in creating the 72 ship sheets in FC Briefing 2 was tremendous, but that effort went into the creation of that expansion book (I hope that you folks turned a profit off all that). These e23 PDF downloads are an interesting way to make some extra cash off an existing product (nothing wrong with that) and way of offering something to gamers who like to print out and fight vast fleets of ships, where having these as laminated ship cards would be prohibitively expensive. But having these downloads costing nearly $60 is also expensive and may doom that project as well.

Perhaps a compromise could be made to offer a separate download of only the basic Middle Years cruisers of the core space powers (Federation, Gorn, Klingon, Kzinti, Orion, Romulan, and Tholian). Not the frigates, destroyers, improved command cruisers, tugs, or dreadnoughts, but just the basic cruisers (the Romulans should have the War Eagle and the KR to make an 8-ship package). Sort of like the ships that were in that ziplock Task Force Game #4, back in 1979 (I got mine and still use it as an ultra simple game to bash out quickly with old SFB friends).

Those cruisers were the backbone of the belligerent space fleets in the time surrounding the Star Trek 1966 TV show, and are the most popular with gamers, in my experience.

Just a thought.

"I wish your enterprise to-day may thrive."
- Shakespeare's Julius Caeser, Act 3, Scene 1.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 10:30 am: Edit

Scott, sales of B2 were quite decent, but the manpower cost of doing the product was too high. We could have done two attack modules and six boosters for the same work, with a total retail value of $120).

I seriously have begun to suspect that B3 will never be published, but will be released as a series of e23 packs instead, again, 72 ships for $60.

The ship card pack price is based on what they cost us to make, and if that price means they dont sell very well, it doesn't mean cheaper e23 packs, it means no e23 packs at all because no new ships will be done at all.

I don't see any point to offering a separate set of packs that duplicate the same thing. It would just confuse everybody. Somebody who bought the "middle years cruiser pack" (which would still be 12 ships for $10) would like it and then what would he buy to get more middle years ships? You'd then want us to take the same 72 cards and shuffle them into six other packs of 12 (cruisers in one, destroyers in another) and the result would be no benefit to anyone and confusion to everyone.

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 11:02 am: Edit

OK. It was just a thought.
Granted, a stupid thought, but I put it out there, anyway.
Mostly in the hope that you may offer an inexpensive download of the most popular Middle Years ships to those who may be interested in using B2 PDFs but would never foot the bill in that 6-part set.

Hopefully, this concept actually takes off and nets you folks some serious cash so that you can continue making these excellent games.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 01:36 pm: Edit

I asked something like this before (when dealing with Omega) but I wanted to ask about it, in terms of how it might affect Alpha:


Would double-space Ship Cards count as 2 ships in an e23 format, or would each still count as the one?


For example, would an e23 pack of, say, light battleships still have 12 ships in it (taking up more file space each) or only have 6 (with each BBL taking up 2 slots)?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Probably six battleships, but I doubt we would ever do a battleship pack. We'd put each empire's BBL into that empires next ship pack, where it might or might not count as two ships. I haven't gotten that far yet, but the Frax may get there this month.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 05:23 pm: Edit

I see.

If the light battleships are to be split up, could that mean the likes of the BBL, B9 and KSH could be on the table sooner rather than later, when it comes to deciding what new ships to make empire files out of?

By Scott Johnson (Sejembalm) on Thursday, September 02, 2010 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Battleships would be way too condensed to fit two on one 8.5x11" page.
When I made printer-friendly SSD versions of dreadnoughts, I could not include any weapons tables that I could with the other smaller ships:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/Commanders%20Circle/documents/ship%20cards/FC_Klingon_C8_DN_SQD.jpg

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/Commanders%20Circle/documents/ship%20cards/FC_Federation_DN_FJ_sqd.jpg

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/Commanders%20Circle/documents/ship%20cards/FC_Kzinti_DNH_squadron.jpg

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/Commanders%20Circle/documents/ship%20cards/FC_Romulan_Heavy_Condor_SQD.jpg

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/Commanders%20Circle/documents/ship%20cards/FC_Romulan_K9R_DN_SQD.jpg

Still waiting for the fleet version of the Gorn T-Rex Dreadnought in the Ship Cards Page so I can make those.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 11:31 am: Edit

Gary: could be. Petrick is doing them for R13 so the designs will exist by next year.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Sounds promising!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 02:23 pm: Edit

I didn't promise anything!

By Fred J. Kreller (Kreller1) on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 02:35 pm: Edit

But, Steve!! :-)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Fine, then; sounds potential-ing?


Oh, and if the ISC BBL ever gets a Ship Card, I'd request that the note about a plasma variant from page 29 of CL41 Supplemental be incorporated into the card itself; i.e. that PPDs C and D (in Squadron Scale) have the option to be replaced with LP and RP Pl-S torps, for no change in Point Value.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 12:33 pm: Edit

SVC,

In light of your comments about the non-viability of Boosters 94 and 95, does that mean you are more willing to consider empire specific "support packs" for sale as PDFs?

EDIT:
And by "support packs" I mean packs of support ships. They would include tugs, LTTs, commando, scout, and survey ships for a single empire. Could throw in the police flagship, too.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 01:24 pm: Edit

I am working up plans for packs of ships, but survey ships and scouts would be in BoM packs, not support packs, and the whole concept of support packs is not really marketable as such. I'd rather just make sure that the minimum number of support ships got into regular packs.

I'd see a BoM pack with carriers, escorts, scouts, survey ships, police flagships, maybe minesweepers.

I'd see a ship pack that just happened to have an LTT, Tug, and two commando ships, along with assorted other missing ships and variant ships.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 01:32 pm: Edit

OK. Cool. Thanks.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 02:27 pm: Edit

I have opened topics for Fed, Klingon, Romulan, and ISC expanson pack nominations. I will set up topics for other empires later; hold your nominations until then. I leave it to Mike West to collect nominations from the Forum and bring them over here.

Pay attention to what goes into Borders of Madness and what is available for regular expansions. DO NOT EVEN TRY to define a list of 12 ships (that is SVC's choice and he's very territorial) just list ships available with comments (if you want) about their relative priority and importance.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 04:27 pm: Edit

SVC,

How does a ship's inclusion into a PDF pack affect its chances of a laminated card?

For example, I think that, at the least, the Romulan K7R, KDR, Vulture deserve full laminated cards. If the next Attack product is Gorn or ISC Attack, then those three ships become very useful candidates for that. But, they are also prime candidates for a Romulan PDF pack.

So, should they be "withheld" from PDF pack consideration to allow their use in a Gorn/ISC Attack, or would their inclusion in a PDF pack have no influence on their usability in an Attack product?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Also, what is the stance on whole new classes?

If we are restricted to existing classes that have been published for at least one empire, then you will get very controlled sets of lists. If however, you add in any new classes, it can go nuts really quickly.

What do I mean by "new classes"? Oh how about:
CCH, CWH, DDL, FFL, Guard ships, various auxiliaries, DNW, DNM, and probably another half-dozen designs I can't think of right at this instant.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 04:36 pm: Edit

SVC,

Another question: How big do you want the carriers to go? Do we stop at CVS class carriers, or do we include CVA class carriers?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 04:39 pm: Edit

At this point, Mike, I don't know that there will ever be more laminated cards. Given that Hydran Attack sold 1/3 of what Distant Kingdoms sold (and that was BEFORE the economy crashed the wargame market) I have little confidence that an "ISC Attack" product would sell any better than booster 92 or even as well. I'd say to just go ahead and get the ships on the list and not worry about the future of laminated cards. (Now, there is one, remotely feasible, longshot chance for more laminated cards, but until I get that past Leanna, I won't even mention it. There's also a remote chance that a workable in-house lamination system could be found. The household and office pocket laminators don't even come close to what we'd have to have, more of a commercial level machine.) It's not like all of these (or any of these) will be on e23 next week. There's plenty of time to see if the market recovers.

I see no point in even thinking about Guard ships.

As for all of the rest of the new classes, well, sales will tell. No matter what is in Gorn Pack #1, if it doesn't sell, Gorn Pack #2 won't ever happen.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Carrier size doesn't need to be decided anytime soon. I wouldn't think that CVAs would be in the first round.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 05:04 pm: Edit

SVC,

Ouch. Wow. Bummer.

I have transferred over the main lists for the Feds, Klingons, and Romulans. I am sure others will add in more selections I forgot. I only did a "new classes" list for the Federation. I would take way longer than I have to do the Romulan list.

I am sure Gary will eventually transfer over his lists for the ISC at some point.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 05:06 pm: Edit

The lists aren't going to be (nor are they expected to be) finished this week. I just need a "pool" to pick from.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Will there be threads for the generics, Vudar or Seltorians?

Also, could there be a thread for oddball ships, like the M81 Pirates?