Archive through August 01, 2007
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Captain's Log: New Fiction:
The Orion pirates:
Archive through August 01, 2007
Here's a question, how much has been done about the Orion pirates? Culture, politics, etc?
See, The Pirates have a few problems.
#1. While the lesser pirates may work for a living, but the cost of a single LR could set people up in luxury for the rest of their life-- look at the F&E ship costs.
#2. Sociopaths with guns dont' work over the long term. The street gang may be able to ambush a lone cop, but how many times do they try and stand and fight-- the attitude is very different. Orions have, and orions also moonlight as mercs.
#3. What are their interlocks into polite society? While some do play at slaving, I can't see a group known for destroying entire worlds and carting the survivors off getting any kind of aid from anyone-- it would be too dangerous in the long run...so there has to be a more complex dynamic working there. Are they the Yakuza, or the crips?
There are others, but those do for the onset.
Charles:
I don't know much about how much has been written about Orion Pirate culture, but I do know a little about the history, and extrapolated from that. Remember that the original Pirates were Orion national ships that mutinied rather than join the combined Federation fleet. I have always thought that this was done with at least the connivance of elements of the Orion planetary government. The reason why the Orion government or parts of it might support this is as an "insurance policy" against the collapse of this untried unified Federation (the ships were supposed to return under Orion colors if the Federation dissolved). In order to maintain these ships as a fleet in being, the fleet resorted to piracy. They became acquainted with organized crime elements throughout their operating area (they need fences, etc.). A coup-style takeover of criminal elements in an area becomes much more possible with highly trained military personnel (the Orion Marines aboard ship) serving as cadre and a spec ops strike team. As a result, the Orion Pirates ended up in control of or in a vassal/liege arrangement with (the Hydran region of pirate operations would be a good example here) a large piece of the organized crime assets in this sector of the galaxy. In the core regions of the empires there isn't a lot of formal piracy as there is too much of a military presence, but the laundered profits of piracy support activities of organized crime (bribing officials, suborning shipping clerks, buying interests in businesses to maintain cash flow, etc.). The members of the Pirates here operate under plausible deniability in the same way that modern Mafia dons do. In the more distant regions of the galaxy where the Pirates are a more potent threat because the military/police presence is less strong (remember that piracy is a threat in regions of Earth today such as near Malaysia/Indonesia, but they don't operate near the US or our Navy when they're around) the Pirates rely on "safe havens". These are planets/systems with corrupt or intimidated officials who look the other way at the operations of the Pirates (think the pirate republics operating in the Carribean during the 1500-1600s). There may also be "privateer bases" set up by powers for the Pirates from which they can operate against an opposing power (in my mind the Kzinti/Klingon border near the Federation is a prime candidate) like Jamaica in the 1500s. In these areas, the ready cash that the Pirates have will keep people from talking too much about what they do for a living. Remember that an important focus of the Pirates has been to get basing rights as a part of their merc contracts (WYN cluster, early LDR), so they seem to know about the problem of support. Ships do cost a lot, but if the return on investment over time is high enough (think 10-15 years), they may buy them (good speedboats are expensive, but their capabilities make them good candidates for drug smuggling). I will discuss some of my other ideas at a later time.
Nice job Fred. Please continue.
Yes, I always thought of Orion Pirates as a Mafia with a more Corporate sensibility. Though, I had not really considered their beginnings much as to their goals. Do you think there is a long term goal for the OPs or was it lost to greed over time? Or to acceptence that the Federation was not going to fall?
I wonder if there might be some or one Orion "Don(s)" out there who is still trying to realise the old goal. Good fiction there in lies.
And also, what about the potential for conflict on "moral" reasons. There are Orion's out there that participate in slavery-- there are orions out there that serve mainly as mercs, and others that are mainly smugglers or pirates of material.
A lot might depend on the region-- someone working as a slaver would be seen as utterly devient by the vast majority of federation or Gorn citizens, but simply as a criminal by the Klingons, Romulans, Kzinti or Lyrans.
Of course, it also depends on how much slavery their is-- of course police agencies would love to claim that the orions are drooling slavers. OTH, i t could simply be indentures or high loans for transport-- given the risks of moving people during the general war, such a price might not be high..
Or if you want a more "heroic" mold for some pirates, the central governments hatred of "slavery" could be nothing of the sort-- but if colony world citizens can leave the entire economic structure of the province could unraval...better to leave them to face the horror's of war, yup, yup.
I see the Orions as very disunified, even within Cartels. Part of the job of a cartel lord is to match the proper crew with the proper mission.
But... in SST it mentioned that the electronics for Orion ships do come from Orion itself-- does that mean there is still some galaxy wide organization, that the Orions are simply taking advantage of the demand, or something else?
I myself don't like that particular take on it-- I would see covert bases producing or modifying electronics-- the demand, galaxy wide, would simply be too big and hard for a single province to supply covertly, to say nothing of moving the equipment to the assembly points.
Regarding ethnic Orions (as opposed to the many other races that comprise the Pirate fleet): In GURPS PRIME DIRECTIVE, one thing I deliberately built into the ethnic Orion template was a major intolerance of legal systems; the males have this, the females don't.
If you consider that the Federation represents the ultimate legal system, then when the Orion homeworld decided to join the Federation, THAT event triggered their Intolerance, which caused the events described in the Y113 SFU Timeline entry: "Sixteen Orion ships and 9,000 skilled crewmen mutiny and disappear. These actually go to secret Orion colonies and become the nucleus of the Orion Pirates."
That was my intention in re GPD, anyway. So you've got some published game mechanics to back you up!
Since dibanning your home fleet was part of joining the Federation, perhaps it was in fact a Orion government operation to preserve the home fleet. Then it turned into something else over time. I think it is also understood that there may still be ties between the "Pirates and Orion".
Quote:Regarding ethnic Orions (as opposed to the many other races that comprise the Pirate fleet): In GURPS PRIME DIRECTIVE, one thing I deliberately built into the ethnic Orion template was a major intolerance of legal systems; the males have this, the females don't.
Gary, not having GPD yet, here's a few questions.
1. At what level does the intolerance kick in? I'm assuming that they have ships, so they don't hold up a simple anarchy as ideal. Would it be clan based? That could make sense of how the Orion's do form enduring structures-- the major cartels are more like large (and some times brutal) families, allowing for in-cartel conflict without leading to wholesale chaos.
Could a non-orion join up with the orion families and become "one of hte family?"
Also, if the females don't have this, do we have something of the "aslan" phenomena, where females work and actually maintain the systems that keep everything running?
Well, "Legal systems" are NOT the same thing as loyalty, duty, and other military virtues. But beyond certain basic levels, organization would get problematical interesting.
Around the time of the General War, about 2/3rds of the pirate crews are non-ethnic Orions. I'd guess there are a few ships with all-Orion crews, and a few with completely non-Orion crews, but the other 90% would probably be some kind of mix.
As for the rest of question 1, that hasn't been defined in GPD -- yet. I should also mention the "Factory Warranty", meaning that until something gets printed, it ain't Official until someone named Steve sez -- so this is all IMHO at this point. I'm sure we'll do an Orion sourcebook someday, just not this year.
Female ethnic Orions are very self-centered and do not work well together -- take any daytime soap opera and transpose the female cast. 
It's entirely possibly that individually they could rise to positions of authority (and some almst certaly have), but I would think that their civilization is male-centric on the order of the United States in WWII, and/or the wet-navy Caribbean pirates of the 1600's.
Hmmm... Orion society-- interesting Captain's log possiblity... After I finish grading my class, I might be tempted... 
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FASCINATING topic guys. Really. I too would also like to hear some more develppment of the Orion culture and how it mixes with the pirate branch. Also how cartels are actually organized and operated. I love gangster/mafia stories.
I suspect that what has been proposed as the original involvement of the Orion government with the "freelancer/privateers" is pretty much accurate. But at a certain point in time they probably lost control of the Frankenstein's monster they created. The pirates most likely went rogue on them as well. Of course they might still keep a modest degree of influence with the critical supply of parts for Orion ships. SOMEBODY's gotta be making them. And of course, somebody DOES keep coming up with all these new ship designs and blueprints. Hardly seems like the work of criminals once you think about it.
I suspect that the only place that the pirates are truly vulnerable is in supply and maintenance. That's where the cartel lords derive their true power. They are the ones that have the connections to "acquire" critical parts.
Sure, any pirate can hijack a freighter or two full of ore and/or other valuables. But what then?? Who are you going to sell it to?? And where exactly are you going to pay for repairs and maintenance (not to mention weapons) for your raider once you DO get the cash??
"Hey, don't you worry none. You go see my cousin Tony in the Pizan system. Tell 'em Louie sent ya. He'll hook you up wit' what youse guys need. He can also take 'dat dilithium ore off ya hands while he's at it. Give you a good price, too. While your dere, try some 'o da canoli at Luigi's place on the promenade. Good stuff, I'm tellin ya..."
Some pirates would be independent operators, working free-lance, having minimal contact with "the organization". Coming in long enough just to unload/fence cargo and pick up some needed goods and services. These raiders enjoy a great deal more latitude with how, when and where they operate. They can even attempt to get better deals by going outside the cartel on occasion.
Others would be actual members of a cartel. While these operators would have little to no freedom of action, they will usually hold a higher place in the pirate world. They also have better access to weapons, supplies and repairs. Cartel lords would also have the connections and intelligence networks to set them up on juicier "scores" against hi-value targets. They would also enjoy the benefit of being able to more readily operate in tandem with other pirates with less worry about back-stabbing. Very few pirates are going to double-cross an actual cartel ship unless they are VERY sure they can get away with it without being discovered. Nothing like trying to find a new base of operations with a price on your head from the good guys AND the bad guys.
A subplot in an unfinished fiction story of mine revolves around a first officer on a Federation starship during the General War. He's an Orion. When the enclave goes neutral during the Klingon invasion, some of his crewmates are suspicious of him, looking at him like a potential traitor, although he is personally devoted to the Federation and remains completely loyal to his Star Fleet oath. I intend to delve into the whole Orion/Federation background in the story.
The inspiration of this idea came from the U.S. Civil War, when quite a few Union officers from the Southern states did remain loyal to the Constitution, but often faced suspicions from their Northern colleagues. It also, I suppose, has shades of the current suspicions some people have about Arab and Muslim Americans, although my idea for this story is about ten years old and predates our current problems.
With regard to independants, enforcement, and so forth, I refer you to the last paragraph in SFB rule R8.1, also the third paragraph of R8.17. A lot of the material in GPD comes from SFB; you just need to know where to look for it!
As an aside, I've got a GPD project on the back-burner (WAY back) that is set in the EY period, before the pirates split off from the Orions. My supposition is that the Cartels evolved from Orion owned-and-operated megacorporations. You'll have noticed that all of the cartels operate in several different empires? That makes it very difficult to trace the origin of shipments, etc. I'm sure it was deliberate!
BTW, the "independent operators" of the Orion Pirates might very well include ships financed by galactic governments for use in situations that require plausible deniability.
"Yes, sure, the 'Orion' pirates in that ship were all members of the Kzinti military that had gone rouge, Mr. Ambassador. We are just as happy as you that the ISF managed to destroy them; they had been raiding our military depots for the supplies they used to attack your shipping."
John:
Darn you! I've been working on a similar story (Orion Captain of a Fed ship engaging a D7N at an Orion-controlled BATS as part of the operations to chase the Klingons from the Cluster and allow the Cluster to return to the Federation).
Fred
Go ahead, Fred. I don't have time to work on my story until at least next spring, so you've got plenty of time to beat me to it!
et al:
The ST:TOS pilot episode seemed to indicate that slavery was *MUCH* more common than most here believe. Consider the conversation on retirement between Cpt. Pike and his doctor.
I understand ADB's SFU is only loosely rooted in Trek Canon (and I'm not a Trekkie, Trekker, or otherwise a fan-boy; I'm a wargamer) and therefore much divergence is possible, but given that 1) those neutral zones are ripe for the picking even with CA patrols (40-50 different star systems in each F&E hex), 2) there are oodles of unexplored/unclaimed systems in the Survey Zones (several dozen hexes in each zone, plus the peripheral hexes within a nation, plus five or six hexes of survey area), 3) even in a modestly populated city such as MDT.PA.US (google.com is good for finding census data) one could easily capture a few *dozen* vagrants and either no one would notice or no one would care enough to call the cops (which should speak volumes about the degree of apathy in my neck of the woods), i do believe it's safe to assume piracy raids do more than frighten children on newly founded peripheral and/or neutral-zone colonies. Now consider what might happen to a colony of 3,000 (too small for any kind of defenses beyond conscripting Militia) if even a single LR were given 24 hours w/o interruption.
At any rate, it is safe to assume the operators focus on the value-dense materials first, and the value-porus materials second. If there is a better price per ton on Algerian Blue Wheat than there is on Mizgorath Pleasure Ladies (or ``green skinned orion slave girls'' a la Cpt. Pike), one can rest assured the bakers will find themselves in good supply. I only raise the precedent set in canon for those who seek excuses. The rest of us will simply say ``in this scenario, the naval player wins if he can rescue the slaves via NVC'' because a naval DD or CL using NVC against a SLV who is not using NVC is a pretty neat fight.
Korrah,
As I understand it, there are a THOUSAND (plus) viable systems in each hex.
We only read about the important ones or the ones where something interesting happens.
No one cares if the stupid jungle armadillos of "overthereistan II" just squat on their mudball and sell poorly fermented jungle juice to anyone that lands on their non strategically located, no great resource containing, too darn hot for humans/ roms/ klinks to want it, planet.
As for planets with EXTREMLY low populations, the darn LR will spend most of their time trying to FIND the inhabitants. Especially if they are a "back to the farm" agrarian colony. Besides, on most sparsely inhabited planets the locals are probably ARMED with LETHAL weapons. Would YOU want to live in the wilderness unarmed against wolves/ snakes/ bandersnatch/ drop bears???
A raid on a colony depends on several things (military or pirate)
1) something there worth taking or denying others
2) an ability to take or destroy it (ie force)
3) there being insufficient resources there to stop you from taking it.
4) the ability to find whatever it is you want. (if furville XIX is the source of the ULTIMA-MINK, BUT each trapper lives alone in an unheated teepee in the bfe, how in the heck are you going to find the darn trappers? If there is a trading station, you don't think they might hide or defend their stuff?)
5) there not being a relief force coming soon enough to spoil your sinister plans.
Quote:Now consider what might happen to a colony of 3,000 (too small for any kind of defenses beyond conscripting Militia) if even a single LR were given 24 hours w/o interruption.
I forget how many BPs a LR can carry: something like 10? So that's about 50 soldiers, plus whatever militia it can raise from the crew. Whereas the colony "militia" may consist of every able-bodied adult who can handle a rifle. (In the SFU, projectile weapons like assault rifles are still available, are fairly cheap, and just as deadly as they are today. Some of the better trained soldiers would have phasers or energy rifles, but it's not hard to imagine nearly every adult being armed in some manner.) Give them just an hour to get ready, and your hypothetical pirates are going to be facing a much larger force, which is on the defensive. Very difficult for the LR to deal with. I'm sure that the pirates will take slaves when they can, but they need to be fast and take down isolated farms or small villages, before any defense can be organised.
Quote "(40-50 different star systems in each F&E hex)" ... actually, I ran the numbers some time ago and came up with roughly one million stellar bodies per F&E hex, which are 500 parsecs across. Assuming one stellar body every 5 parces, that's 100 x 100 x 100 ......
Garth L. Getgen
reduced by the fraction of star systems with useful planets...
I thought SVC said there are something like a 1000 systems that are useful in a F&E hex WAY back.
Obviously it varies.
Define "useful". I just said that there can be one million (give or take) stellar bodies per F&E hex. If you figure one percent have planets, you're down to ten thousand planetary systems. If you figure ten percent of those are "useful", that is to say worth mining, you have a thousand. If you figure one percent of the "useful" planets are actually habitable, you now have ten possible colonies and/or alien populations per hex.
But, hey, you know what? We have a real live astronomer on this board. Why don't we ask Dale Fields what he thinks, in his professional opinion?? Oh, Dale .....
Garth L. Getgen
Stellar density is also affected by whether you're looking in an arm of the galaxy, or a void between arms. the SFU doesn't address this, and so we pretty much ignore it, but in the real world I expect it would have orders-of-magnitude effect on how many stars are in a F&E hex.
I've always assumed that there are as many usable worlds in a hex as we need to have.
Quote:Give them just an hour to get ready, and your hypothetical pirates are going to be facing a much larger force, which is on the defensive. Very difficult for the LR to deal with. I'm sure that the pirates will take slaves when they can, but they need to be fast and take down isolated farms or small villages, before any defense can be organised.
Unless that small colony is mounting some impressive defensive arrays, giving them time to collect in one place is the best thing a pirate can do. It will save time later because they will not have to round them up themselves and be more vulnerable to ambushes, cut down on the number of possible "freedom fighters" hiding in caves/forested areas, and collect most of the populace that's willing to fight where it's easy to get to. *****Don't forget, if the Enterprise can set the main phaser banks to stun (A Piece of the Action [I think]), why wouldn't an Orion Slaver be able too as well?*****
Personally I would define the thousand systems as capable of supporting life in one form or another. You can do quite a lot of things with planets, especially when you start putting together things like the Genesis Device.