Jon Murdock:

Thing is, Beverly Crusher being command certified was always pretty much a joke.

Command of a major ship is just not something you "pick up on the side." Beverly Crusher was a skilled medical officer, and her "training time" should have been tied up basically in learning all things medical, particularly on a ship with a multi-species crew, much less in a multi-species service to begin with.

Similar thing pretty much also applied to Troi.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 04:50 pm: Edit

I would agree with you but StarFleet as portrayed on TV has always involved a lot of weird crosstraining and transfers across barriers that would rarely be crossed in a conventional military. In the "future" of the finale they gave Crusher command of a medical ship. LaForge was presumably on some kind of command line track in the first season when he was flying the ship but transferred to Engineering.

Starfleet also seems to operate with more officers then enlisted which is even more baffling. Almost everyone is an Ensign or a Lieutenant. There were a few episodes with enlisted personnel but they seem to make up about 10% of the ship's complement.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Well that's just the natural progression of humanity as a whole. A friend was just telling me how his company was announcing with great fanfare and pride on how they had just hired 50 new managers to help with operations... and then announced layoffs of 20% of the workforce due to budgetary constraints. Now instead of your boss telling your team of 5 people to do more work than you can do, your 2 bosses tell your team of 4 to do even more work. This has been going on for awhile now, so it's more like your 4 bosses telling you and a coworker to do twice the work!

Advance that out to the 24th century, and 17 committees of over 110 managers/officers will be telling the single worker to manufacture a warp engine from unrefined ore. He is authorized to get the janitor to assist him if necessary.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 05:33 pm: Edit

I suspect that the officer to enlisted ratio is more a matter of the show focusing on the command staff than anything else. There's a range of crewman ratings, plus petty officers, portrayed across the shows; we just don't see them that often because the focus was on the senior officers.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 05:41 pm: Edit

That makes some sense but you rarely see enlisted even in areas that should be full of enlisted. Engineering, all officers. Security, all officers. Science, all officers. It makes sense in the command meetings. Even in Ten-Forward it seems to be all officers.

Do the enlisted all just hang out elsewhere or have really trashy work areas that the officers do not deign to go to?

Also, a lot of the officers don't seem to be officers in the Star Trek sense. In the episode where Wesley is competing to enter StarFleet Academy he is up against three very bright people and only one is going to make it. They go through a battery of tests including a psych test that is made to seem pretty harrowing. I am supposed to believe that Barclay passed that battery of tests? Really?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 05:55 pm: Edit

RE: Lack of enlisted personnel ... Roddenberry was a cop for a while. To me, it appears he patterned Starfleet after the police force where everyone starts as an Officer (Ensign) and can stay at that rank for an entire 20+ year career (see: Chekhov and Harry Kim). It doesn't appear they have a strong up-or-out policy.

RE: Trek = Western ... My take on this is the Federation established the core region, that being the Capital hex and the six surrounding hexes. They sent Star Fleet out until they ran into someone else. First, it was the Romulans, then the Kzintis and Klingons (I forget which was first), and finally the Gorns. In Year-103 (?), the Federation unilaterally set the border, and Star Fleet naturally explored and fortified the outer rim. This left the middle ring lightly explored, with minimum Star Fleet presence. To me, this region was the Wild West of Federation space before the General War.


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Garth L. Getgen:

Roddenberry was also an Army Air Force bomber pilot in World War II and aware of how a military organizes personnel into enlisted and officer ranks. As far as it goes, while we do not see them addressed a lot, there are clearly enlisted personnel running around on the ship at various times in the original series. Just instead of wearing trousers and pullover shirts, they usually wore coveralls. The rank of "crewman" is mentioned several times in various episodes.

This was less the case in the subsequent series.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:03 pm: Edit

I worked at a company with 14 levels of management between me and the president. The new owners were not amused.

I was trying to work the officer-heavy crew into a story once. Practically everyone on the ship is an officer of some kind, although many are "officers without command" staff tracks. With most traditional scut work being automated (Roomba) or handed over to wandering bands of excess Ensigns, perhaps an single set of ranks was sufficient for shipboard operations.

Ground forces may still use enlisted ranks for assorted reasons - lack of technical or command training, raw numbers of troops, and a much higher casualty rate that Fleet crews. (Star Fleet builds and loses crews in ship-sized chunks - the Mobile Infantry has to continuously integrate casualty replacements piecemeal. )

(Insert dissertation of military recruiting practices in a massive multi-terrestrial population base. That doesn't use money.)

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Hey, the army of the City of Oz was eight generals, six colonels, seven majors, five captains, and one private. So Starfleet would fit right in.

Note that in Oz they later promoted the Private.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:11 pm: Edit

The book Starship Troopers also touched on the use of permanent ranks. IIRC, the status was even included in the rank, ie. "Permanent Lieutenant".

This would allow for a lot of lower-ranked officers in technical or small-unit leadership positions that are not being groomed for command or strategy position.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Steve Zamboni:

Heinlein penned "Starship Troopers" at least two decades before the U.S. military adopted the "up or out" system. Heinlein was familiar with the concept of the "professional private" from his time in the U.S. Navy (and the U.S. Naval Academy).

It is probable that if he had written the book after "up or out" was instigated, it might have affected his views on the subject, particularly if he had been attending the Naval Academy or serving actively at the time "up or out" was instigated, rather than in the 1930s.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:32 pm: Edit

There is a push to change the way the modern US military officer promotion system works. Some people want to get rid of the up-or-out policy and make it possible for an O-2 to stay in for 20+ years. My first thought when I read the article was "somebody's been watching too much Star Trek."


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:46 pm: Edit

To be honest, "up or out" has its major point in that it "clears out deadwood" to allow "talent to rise." That is to say that by eliminating people who are only just able to do their jobs and not good enough to move on to the next job, you clear the way for someone more talented to take the job.

However, there is another side of the coin dubbed "The Peter Principle" in that sooner or later most people rise to a job in which they are no longer competent, and thus are not promoted but reman in place, and thus sooner or later all jobs are handled by people not competent to do their jobs. But they basically (in the military) sit there until they have been "passed over" for promotion twice.

It has been noted that things MIGHT be better if there were a "non-humiliating way" to demote someone back to his or her "level of competency." But even if it was not humiliating to be adjudged a failure at the higher job, you are still filling positions with people who are blocking the advancement of people who might be able to do the higher job, because they cannot demonstrate competence at a lower job because someone is already there.

All systems have drawbacks. "Up or out" is cruel (You were a great Frigate captain, but you could not cut it as a destroyer captain, so we are firing you.) But the reverse is "You might make a great frigate captain, and you have the potential, we think, to move on and eventually become a cruiser captain, but all of our frigate captain slots are currently occupied by people who were not good enough to be destroyer captains, so we cannot give you a frigate post, but at least all of our current frigate captains are good at their jobs, even if none of them can command a destroyer well.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Thus explaining how Kirk in the latest movie went from new recruit to captain of a major starship. All the frigate captain posts were filled with dead-end personnel.

By Mark Hoyle (Usa_Retired) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 07:50 pm: Edit

ST:IV
it is the judgment of this council that you be reduced in rank to captain. And that as a consequence of your new rank, you be given the duties for which you have demonstrated unswerving ability, the command of a starship.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 07:59 pm: Edit

There is value in having some long timers in a given rank, up and out is hard on institutional memory.

By Eddie Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 11:02 pm: Edit

OK the Star Fleet Technical Manual list the crew of a Constitution class heavy cruiser as 43 officers(Command) and 387 crew(ensign grade). So all crew members below command level are ensigns.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 12:20 am: Edit

The FJ tech manual concept that every private was a second lieutenant was never used in Star Trek (which actually refuted it quite specifically) and was rejected by SFU for that reason.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 12:51 am: Edit

---

Quote:

However, there is another side of the coin dubbed "The Peter Principle" in that sooner or later most people rise to a job in which they are no longer competent, and thus are not promoted but reman in place, and thus sooner or later all jobs are handled by people not competent to do their jobs. But they basically (in the military) sit there until they have been "passed over" for promotion twice.

---

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 02:57 am: Edit

Xander Fulton:

Everyone should have a theory.

My own is that the increase in accidents has more to do with a combination of increasing and somewhat related issues.

Reductions have left too few ships trying to cover too many tasks. Resulting in stress on existing crews.

In addition to the tasks there are way too many social feel good training requirements that make those championing them happy, but do nothing in terms of actually enabling sailors to learn their real jobs, but usually have higher priority to be conducted. This detracts from the time available to learn their real jobs, and adds to the general dissatisfaction and to the stress levels.

The above factors cause a lot of the higher quality junior enlisted and junior officers to depart, leaving a slightly less qualified cadre to try to carry on, creating more stress, more dissatisfaction, and more trouble with retention in a continuing cycle of decline.

I just do not think a return to "career seamen" and "career ensigns" is going to fix the problem.

The stress is also causing an even greater tightening of senior officers trying to control everything and not trusting subordinates because a mistake, even a relatively minor one, by a subordinate, could destroy their own career, which also adds to the stress and helps perpetuate the cycle.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 03:38 am: Edit

I think that modern officers spend WAY too much of their career doing "jointness" and "staff" work.

I mean, yeah, that cruiser captain should understand logistics. But he shouldn't spend a couple year tour being in charge of buying a revised widget and another as a recruiter. Basically, an "Officer of the unrestricted line" should spend half or more of his career aboard ship.

You can have all kinds of staff officers do other stuff. That's why there is a JAG, Seabee Officers (CEC), etc.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 10:49 am: Edit

There were definitely crewmen on Star Fleet ships in the series. TNG had a (pretty dull) episode about junior officers and crewmen. Picard had to defend a quarter-Romulan crewman from an insane prosecutor who say traitors everywhere in one of the best episodes of TNG. Voyager had an episode about Janeway trying to help some crewmen who had withdrawn since the ship got lost. The people were not career Starfleet and basically joined up short-term because a tour in StarFleet is a good stepping stone. O'Brien was called a Lieutenant in one episode of TNG but was clearly enlisted based on conversations on DS9.

They just don't seem to ever show up. StarFleet just seems to have a "too many chiefs and not enough indians" problem. It does not seem to have an "up and out" policy. In the "It's a Wonderful Life" episode where Picard sees what would have happened if he had been more responsible as a kid he was the same age as a Lieutenant. The question is where does StarFleet put all these officers? Do they retire? Do most of the older officers end up on groundside posts or on starbases?

Of course the reality is that the writers did not spend a ton of time thinking about it, probably less then I have.

I do have a question for those with more of a military history background. How do these kinds of promotion expectations shift during wartime?

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 10:59 am: Edit

Steve Petrick:

One of my favorite fictional alien species is basically a benevolent autocracy with everyone serving a mandatory term of service in the military in order to earn full citizenship and most of them make it a career. Basically everyone is a public servant and the military handles things that we would class as civilian jobs. Their military engineers build civilian infrastructure. The military serves as their equivalent of government, police, firefighters, FEMA, traffic control, free public health care, etc.

The mentality of the species is different and the writers basically acknowledge that if humanity went with that form of government it would almost certainly end in tyranny.

Anyways, the reason I bring it up is that their society was based on rising to your abilities and there is no shame in serving in any capacity. If you are promoted or moved outside of your skillset you can be demoted or returned without shame. The people who promoted you are the ones who are seen as shameful "screw ups" because they should have known better what you were capable of as that is their job.

By John Barnes (Nitehawke) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 11:51 am: Edit

Steve Zamboni:

I believe that Heinlein's 'Permanent Lieutenant' was not so much that the person was not promoted beyond that level so much as saying that that was their 'official' rank that they would return to. Someone might be promoted to 'brevet Captain, or 'brevet Major' during a battle during which their superior officers were all killed, but after the engagement was over, they would revert to their 'permanent' rank. If their performance as a 'brevet officer' was exemplary, they might be promoted to the rank permanently.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 10, 2018 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Joe Murdock:

While an interesting view of an alien society, here on Earth you are stuck with the problem that humans do not react well to demotions, and that is both on the personal level (the individual demoted) and the larger context (how the individual demoted is viewed and treated by his peers).