We have scheduled Romulan Armada for March. I would expect a third Armada module (pick two "attack" modules) later in 2010.

I don't know about a carrier module, maybe, but I would not see it including any empire which is not already in the Armada game.

We could do a frax ship or two easily enough, but without counters OR minis, this would seem to be a less than ideal direction of travel.

We could also see a "reinforcements" pack of 40 ships, but where would counters come from? Not an idea direction.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 01:38 pm: Edit

If a customer buys Module H1, they'd be set not only for the counters they'd need for Klingon and Romulan Armada, but for a host of other ships one might find in the Alpha Octant - including the WYN fish ships.

However, if a future module was to be done which would combine Distant Kingdoms and Hydran Attack, the issue of ship duplication might be tricky.


So, what if a Reinforcements pack only had a small number of WYN ships, but ones which either:

*do not currently feature on FC-specific counter sheets as it stands (such as the Grey Shark DN - which I think has a counter in H1 - and the Tigershark BCH, which I'm not sure about),

or

*have more than one variant not currently represented in FC, or at least not in either DK or HA (is the CA from Booster #21 the same as the Black Shark from Booster Zero? If not, the latter could be used - and if so, there are other CA variants out there),

or

*which a player might want to have several of to bulk out a fleet anyway (such as the Mako DD or Barracuda FF)?


The Orions and Tholians only have three ships each as it stands, but have enough to give a taste of what is to come - and presumably allow for Tholian and Orion carriers to be looked at.

A similar WYN preview could make fish ship carriers available for an appropriate module, even if a full DK/HA Armada module was to be released afterwards.


When it comes to the Frax, that might be a trickier proposition. Although, if the countersheet from C4 could be divided into two and made available separately, the Frax half would be a start, and would come with the fighters they may need if they ever got carriers.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 02:05 pm: Edit

What am I supposed to do with the other half of the C4 countersheet?

You don't need H1 since the Klingon Armada and Romulan Armada sheets are available separately and the other sheets duplicate ships in other products.

You have a lot of ideas (some workable, some not), Gary, but don't expect me to carve any specific idea into stone tablets right now. Let's do Romulan Armada and then see which way the customers want to go.

By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 05:16 pm: Edit

I'm looking forward to Romulan Armada.

Starmada players tend to be miniatures players. So I expect that the counters will be pretty much a non-issue for most of the customers who come to Klingon Armada from the Starmada side. Most of the SFU gamers will already have the counters, and the remaining fraction of the customer base will be able to buy the counters as spare parts.

But as SVC points out it's too early to make decisions on this, so I'll drop the subject now.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 05:33 pm: Edit

I was probably like this when FC got launched, too - all too quick to start talking about the kind of products that are only now set to get their turn in that system, while everyone else was happy to focus on the more immediate horizon.

It can be a problem when an idea like this seems to develop some sense of importance or urgency in my own mind (maybe in case I lose track of it, or something) - but it never quite survives the transition into the written form.


One would think I'd have learned my lesson by now...


...and how to distill a block of ideas into a concise proposal (or comment or whatnot) for that matter.


In any case, I'm excited to see where the game might go once Romulan Armada is on the shelves - though it's an excitement I'll try to rein in for the time being.


Sorry, everyone.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 11:51 pm: Edit

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Starmada players tend to be miniatures players

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By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 12:39 am: Edit

If the 40K guys want to use big fleets, use a big table and a battlemat. Personally, I think 10-15 ships on a side is "big". If we're talking 40K-army-sized fleets with 50+ ships per side, I'd get bored with such a huge game.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 02:29 am: Edit

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If the 40K guys want to use big fleets, use a big table and a battlemat. Personally, I think 10-15 ships on a side is "big". If we're talking 40K-army-sized fleets with 50+ ships per side, I'd get bored with such a huge game

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By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 02:52 am: Edit

I'd argue about "with modern miniature processes, you could easily scale down the SFU ships to half the size they are now".

That was done before with the Elite series and I'm sorry to say - they were pretty ugly in some key cases.

Some ships (Hydrans, ISC) scale easily and were executed well at that scale.

Others that are more "vertical" or have more cantilevered parts (Klingons, Feds) did not fair so well and looked pretty bad.

In particular, the Fed CA (the "star" of the game), just looked butt-ugly. The engines and struts simply can't be represented in cast-metal at that small of a scale in a playable piece without huge compromises. They have to be beefed up so much that it doesn't look like the "tv ship" anymore and starts looking like a blob.

Modern pewter alloys would not help much. The tiny little sticks for the engines would bend and droop at the slightest touch, shedding paint and aggravating players.

Once the "star" minis had to be compromised badly to make them playable, it kind of defeats the point of having cool looking minis for me. I'd play with tokens or counters and save the expense and work.

The only material that would work for detailed minis at that small scale is injection-molded plastic. There's plenty of injection resins that are firm and strong but not brittle and able to take great detail. Polyphenylsulfone [Radel] or Polyetherimide [Ultem] would be just about perfect.

Unfortunately, injection-mold tooling is well known to be prohibitively expensive for a hobby industry.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 02:59 am: Edit

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Unfortunately, injection-mold tooling is well known to be prohibitively expensive for a hobby industry

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By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 04:06 am: Edit

Somewhat back on-topic, 40 hexes in Klingon Armada is a LONG distance. In SFB, weapons can fire that far and a ship travels ~20 hexes per turn. In KA, max weapon range is typically less than half that and a ship will travel 5-7 hexes per turn. Once they get used to it, the smaller board will seem less cramped.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 10:34 am: Edit

The whole idea that "with modern miniature processes, you could easily scale down the SFU ships to half the size they are now" is based on their false assumption that the minis that exist were done by "modern" processes (computer models and 3d printing). If they had been, then sure, it would be easy (at least part of it, at least up to a point), but they weren't, so doing half-size or other smaller minis is "starting over from scratch" and quite simply, you've got a long way to go to convince me that sales would support the cost.

Cost of one 3d computer model brought to the point of a metal master: $100 if you can get Todd to do them for essentially free (unlikely given the need for 200 models) and $750 per ship if you do them the way warhammer is done (commericial rates). Then the cost of molds ($50 per ship) and production (varies).

You'd have to show me preorders for 2000 copies of any ship you wanted done.

By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 05:48 pm: Edit

As an aside (and still off-topic for this thread; sorry), I am intending to transition most of my sculpting work to 3D CAD / 3D Printed over the course of this year.

I finally found an affordable 3D CAD platform (Alibre) that had an interface similar to the one I stare at all day at work (CATIA), so I don't have to unlearn/relearn all the time. I just need to clear my project-list to allow some time to learn the differences in the new software. It's already bought and installed, just waiting for some free "hobby time" hours.

Once I finish the kitbashed masters for the Fed oCA and Klingon HF5 that I've already committed to, those are likely to be the last "practical" master minis I submit to ADB.

I've already discussed pricing and model formats with Todd Boyce at Ninja Magic, so I'll be ready to do my first digital master before too long. I might end up doing something fun for myself first to work the "kinks" out before trying to do it on a deadline for production.

I am looking forward to it though. Working in CAD is a lot less "risky" for the sculptor. There's no mistake that religious file-saves and backups can't fix. There's plenty of ways to ruin a practical sculpture in-progress, and that's always on my mind (and was making me sweat when I was working over-drive to finish the F5W to catch the "Juggy" mold production).

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 05:57 pm: Edit

I would love to have true 1:7200 scale models of the classic SFB/Trek ships. I vastly prefer the Elite scale stuff for what I do with them, and have spent YEARS scouring for them.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 06:29 pm: Edit

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I vastly prefer the Elite scale stuff for what I do with them, and have spent YEARS scouring for them.

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By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 06:19 pm: Edit

BTW, is the next set ('Romulan Armada') still on target for March? (This was mentioned farther up-thread)

If so...any teasers for the cover art, yet?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 06:28 pm: Edit

So far as I know, it's on track.

By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Love that cover. Adam strikes again.

By Jeff Johnson (Jeffro) on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 07:08 pm: Edit

Awesome. What is the top left ship?

By Reid Hupach (Gwbison) on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Looks like a Condor

By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Yep, condor I'd say. Adam did a good job on the foreshortened perspective there, wish I had a tenth of his talent.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 03:35 am: Edit

*scratches head*

Well, it's not bad, no, but...I mean, compared to the 'Klingon Armada' cover?

Linkage

...I dunno. Not quite in the same league. Adam's Federation and Klingon ships, I think, just look SO MUCH BETTER than his Romulans. Can't quite put my finger on what I dislike about them. They are just so...white. Even the Federation hulls seem significantly more...I dunno...detailed? ...textured? Something. I dunno, maybe looks better in print.

By Terence Sean Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 04:11 am: Edit

Seems equally detailed to me, the Sparrowhawk is well done I think. And the War Eagle in the middle is washed out by glare from the Type-R it is launching.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 10:41 am: Edit

Personally, I'd prefer it if the ships were all facing from a common point of origin - the current formation seems a bit disjointed.

Could there be room for a matching pic of Fed and Gorn ships on the back cover?

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 04:18 pm: Edit

The Klingons look like brushed aluminum. The Romulans look plasticky. It's a function of the texture maps he's using, I think.