Archive through December 06, 2010
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battle Force: Battle Force Proposals: New Rules:
Archive through December 06, 2010
No thoughts/degredations on the alternate EW rules?
RS: I like the alternate rule! Cool!
JK: double up to 2 ph-3 cards? Excellent idea.
Andy Palmer: Draft a one-page memo outlining your view on the production of two-three-four expansion packs (total 132 cards) which you think might sell well. Have it on my desk by Thursday noon.
OK.
Sent.
James Boyce and I were playing SFBF this evening. We talked some about fighter defense.
Generally, disruptors are pretty good fighter killers in SFB. Even photons can be used, but not as well as with disrs. So we thought maybe the rules could be ammended so that disr cards should be able to defend against fighter attacks at -1 (i.e. a 4 pt. disr does 3 points to a fighter squad), and photons at -2 (in both cases, the loss of damage showing the effects of the small target modifier, obviously).
And it just occurred to me now, perhaps if you play an ECCM card, that cancels the disadvantage, and the weapons do full damage. That would also potentially make the ECCM cards a lot less useless. Sure, under the regular rules, you can probably find a use for the darn thing EVENTUALLY, but in the meantime it can take up a valuable slot in your hand for a LONG time before you finally do get some use out of it - which is why I often just discard the thing when I draw it. If phots and disrs could be used as fighter defense, and the ECCM card could cancel the small target modifier for firing on fighters, having that ECCM card stuck in your hand (you had to discard something else) might actually come in handy once in a while. And as an added bonus, that's one less useless card stuck in your hand when it's time to draw up to five cards on your next turn.
Is there any game balance issue which makes allowing disrs and phots to defend against fighters a bad idea? Makes the game too defensive oriented instead of attack oriented? Makes fighters too useless?
Not sure if this is exactly the right place to post this, but it's close.
My family and I were playing No Limit Klingon Hold 'Em last night and we ran across something not covered by the rules in CL28.
The lock-on was a ph-3, ph-1 and disruptor, the HET was a plas-S, and the overrun was a drone. We all bet heavily (my wife and son were all-in) and when we revealed our ships it turned out everyone had at least one klingon or kzinti and no one had any plasma races, so we were perfectly tied three ways.
How should such a thing be resolved? I thought maybe you could add up the victory points on your ships and add it to your damage in a tie, so the larger ships win due to extra hull and thus extra staying power.
Another idea was to give the win to the smaller ships as a reward for actually tying the 'big boys'.
The third option would be to leave the pot in place and play another hand to see who wins. Of course, if two out of three players are all-in, this isn't feasible.
Any thoughts?
Let me first say I love this game and I wish I had found it sooner. I played one time bought it and have played it as much as possible since I got it. I have even looked over the info for the ISC, Hydran, and Lyran. Love the ships and the weapons. The only one weapon I have not come to a desicion on is the Hellbore, but that is still to be played. I have though of was to make the races a little diffrent. If there are to be expations than I think it would be nice to see some gorn ships with the plasma-shotgun, the use of shuttles, and maybe the SFG.
My Idea for the Plm-Shot is that i could double Plm-R&F torps. It cant fire rs at all.
The shuttles could be on ships simulat to fighters, they could be a one time use item. Once used you would mark it damged, and it cant be repared. It could be used for a single atk, or as a wild weasle.
The SFG could just be use on a sigle ship, that ship could not atk or be atked till the field was lifted. The ship could be moved out of the rank it is in and when it was releasedit would then be moved back in.
I really like the idea of the mauler.
Brad. The plasma shotgun is already built into the ability of plasma torpedoes to damage fighter squadrons and PF flotilla.
This is the germ of an idea that I don't have time to polish up and fill out and sell right now due to lots of personal life going on, but it's a good enough idea I didn't want it to whither and dry up. I'll leave the detailing to you happy folks. 
One thing that has bugged me is no new weapon cards in the expansions (ESG, PPD, etc...). I understand why with the balance issue, but still it bugs me.
So let's take the balance issue and make it work for us not against us.
These ideas assume a selection of action cards for the new ships/races would be printed.
For the basic game, just state that the Action Deck is X number of cards, probably decided by the number and type of ships. Of this total, the deck is made by a (KISS) formula of A# or cards for each Klingon ship, B# number of cards for each Fed and so on. All remaining cards are not used for that game. The Organian cards will help break up card counters, though an additional Organian type card may need to be added. Blind (face down) discarding could fix that too.
For the advanced game, have the players "buy" their fleets. Then they also have to "buy" their contribution to the Action deck. This has merit in letting players decide how big a game they want to play by setting a fleet point limit and also by adding the strategy of trying to decide what can you afford to put in the Action deck and what can you afford *not* to.
The point cost of the ships is already on the cards, the point cost of the weapons would be the same as their damage done. Cards like Overloads and planetary fighter strikes will need to have points figured up for them or just disallow those to be bought and only randomly added.
Additionally a 'supply reserve' equal to 10%-20% of the allowed Action Card total (per player) is made, shuffled, and held aside by each player.
This 'supply reserve' can now be drawn from instead of the main action deck but when the card is used, it is removed from the game. No reshuffle.
New cards could be added to make further use of the 'supply reserve'. "War college support (#)" could allow you to draw 1-3 cards over your normal hand limit when "War College Support (#)" is played.
Fast Resupply ships could be required to bring (allow) action cards to be played by the screening fleet. Fast Attack cruisers could raid the 'Supply Reserve' (Roll: 1-4, the top card is removed from play [face down], roll: 5-6, top card is 'captured' and added to the raiding players hand.) Of course a way to make that a risk by the raider will need to be figured, but it could also make players keep heavier ships (or some new Police Ships that don't count against your Reserve total) in the Reserve area.
Those are just some ways I thought of to use the 'balance' issue and also to add a new dimension to the game.
One other, rather obvious idea for a rule I came up with was 'command limits'. Use the SFB command levels per hull to limit the number of ships a player can put in his Screen and Main Body. Of course, this might be another application or card variation of the 'War College Support' card, allowing 1-3 ships over the command limit to be used in each force. (Man wouldn't that stink, drawing a much needed Reinforcement card but having no ability to put the new ship into play because of command limits!)
I scanned the existing archives, so if this duplicates someone's already proposed ideas, my bad. :p Hopefully some discussion about these ideas might give us something to add in, hopefully dedicated weapon cards.
This might make for a new level of play, "Expert" and these might be part of the "Expert Rules" perhaps.
Heck, this could make the new expansions 'meatier' making them $15 but with more cards, or add on an additional expansion or two to the ones already being considered. (The Expert Expansions?) I'll gladly pay for more of Ted's cool art and real weapon cards.
Discuss.
RH
Robert. Part of the reason that the DISR, PHOT, DRONE, and PLASMA cards are "reused" for "newer" weapons is that the game needs to work with random ship selection (i.e., not everyone plays where you select a race and play only those ships). The other part is that part of the balance of the game is in the ratio of "useful" weapon cards to ships that can use the weapons. i.e., the game works because you can't optimize the use of every weapon card you get into your hand.
Sure, I understand that. Most of the time I play with folks, we just play a 'random pull' of ships.
If we play (for example) Fed v. Klingon, we pull all the Plasmas out. The deck is still 'non-optimized' for the ships in play.
We've noted that maybe a percent of the 'non-weapon' cards should be pulled too, but without some official guide, we usually don't bother.
Your case you note above could still easily work the same way. Many games with a 'resource deck' suggest that you par down the deck instead of playing a full deck when expansions come out. Sorting out the cards only takes a moment during set up and is still fully optional.
For the game play I was suggesting the same mechanic would still work. If the Hellbore is added, then put them in at the same ratio as other limited availability weapons, perhaps 7 Hellbore cards, the same as the totaled number of Plasma S & R cards. Their rarity can be balanced with about 7 Fusion cards. Diluting the cards usable by the other races balances those as well as the requirement that the fusion ships have to be in the Screen to use them offensively. Same with ESGs.
Further, the (Resource) Action Deck is still not skewed toward any one player, each contributed the same ratio, phasers being the great equalizer (especially 2s & 3s).
Admittedly, he Supply Reserve deck does allow you a very limited access to cards that are tailored to only your ships, but the limit and the susceptibility to raids balances it out. Plus the use of a Supply Reserve, I think, should be an optional rule.
I know the game was never a *hot* seller and I understand the reluctance to back it more than necessary with expensive card runs, but I think pulling short with rules patches and make do's instead of fulling supporting a new expansion would not help the game advance either.
Frankly, I think with the new marketing team and the evidence from FC that a simplier game than SFB is desired, SFBF could really do much better with a fully filled out expansion.
I also think that simple rules toward assembling the Action deck for either the basic or advanced (or expert) games can address balance concerns.
RH
Robert. If you just add 7 Hellbore cards and 7 Fusion cards, then the odds of getting a plasma card or photon card just went down (as the deck is now 14 cards larger). The ideal would be to keep the total action deck size approximately the same as the current deck (i.e., I could see adding 2-4 special cards and could even see a subset of cards, perhaps 4-8, that can be freely swapped in an out out of a pool of 20 or more). Changing the total card count more than that will have a significant impact on game flow and balance.
I could see creating some new Photon/Hellbore cards, for example, that show Hellbore graphics but are still usable as Photons (perhaps with Hellbore as a parenthetical comment) and could be swapped with the old one.
Yes, in an open, random ship game, the odds would go down but because there are now additional firing opportunities from the ships that would use the new cards, the chance for a player to use a weapon card should stay about the same.
This still doesn't consider setting an established deck size rule (i.e.; 20 cards per player, for example, or 10 cards per ship at start, or whatever) or seeding a deck.
To keep ratios near what they are now, if we don't want to go to a seeded deck then only 1-2 additional cards of the existing types would need to be added. That's only 6-12 card if we don't add more phasers.
I totally understand the balance issue, I just don't see it as the 800 pound gorilla that it's made out to be when compared to the opportunity to make the expansion more attractive by making dedicated cards and not having to use 'patch' rules.
I would far rather see the balance issue used as a way to optionally enhance game play. It really is manageable with quite little effort.
When I break out the game at the FLGS, it is well received and has led to getting more SFB players.
When asked later by players, especially ones who know SFB, where the other races are and I have to explain that the expansion won't have real dedicated weapon cards and we're supposed to use some 'make do's' the eyes roll and at that point I can tell they aren't going to be picking up a SFBF set and just got more skeptical about SFB. (Especially if I'm talking to someone who left back in the Nexus Errata Snowball days.)
I don't really know how to run a mathematical model to show all the ratio and balance issues, especially once you add in the Enveloping cards and Overload cards and Mutiny cards and Scatterpack Cards. Nor do I think people would really want me to.
Even if we could agree on a pattern that the game balance would stay intact, we're still going to have to see how much Steve wants to back SFBF. I know the last plan I read about was for four expansions and that was sounding like it was only grudgingly being considered. If this idea makes a need for five or six expansions that may be the real 800 pound gorilla in the room.
RH
Okay, I think I have read all the SFBF topics, and, while the Dragon card is available, I am unable to find the rules to properly use that card. Anyone abl eto tell me, other than CL23(?), if those rules are available online?
Thanks!
I was wondering if anyone has firsthand experience with the TFG title Federation Space? I have the possibility of acquiring a copy in trade. I am considering tweaking it to use as a campaign system and scenario generator for SFBF along with the Racial Duel rules proposed a while back.
1. This is NOT the topic to discuss Federation Space. This is the topic for the card game Star Fleet Battle Force. There really is not topic to discuss Federation space on this BBS, but I guess if you insist you might try "other games".
2. Federation Space was not done by ADB, is total crap, and should not be used as the base for anything (other than for a very wet dog who needs a place to sleep).
SVC et al,
I'm slowly introducing SFB to my brother and nephews (already played one game using cadet ships AND I LOST).
Tomorrow, they're coming over to play SFBOL for the first time. When I purchased the game online, I received 6 playtest ships (3xhydran, 3xLyran).
Where can I find the playtest rules?
Are there final rules?
The shopping cart shows I can order both ships and rules for a buck, but I don't need the ships.
Suggestions, anyone?
Followup on Saturday's game. Bro and Nephews loved the game. I came in Third in points. First and second place were seperated by ONE point.
Definitely looking for the first official expansion.
All of the SFBF articles from CL can be found in the SFBF section of the Download page. This includes the rules for Hydrans and Lyrans.
The only thing that seems to be missing from the download page would be rules for using the Space Dragon card.
Legendary Officers
I'm concerned this one *might* be unbalancing, however, so needs some more testing, basically...
We have a number of 'expert/legendary officers' in the game, already. The 'legendary engineer' and 'legendary gunner' in the base game, and CapLog 42 brings two more to the table. I've also got two more proposed officers in the 'cards' section, today.
In short, for this rule - there would be a third deck of cards in the game. "Legendary Officers". During the game setup, each player would draw *one* card from this deck, and assign that officer to a ship in their fleet (he places the officer card under the ship, so it's partially visible to everyone). The officer stays put on that ship, using his legendary skills whenever called for, until killed with the destruction of the ship he is on.
As some of the legendary officers have an ability you may want to use elsewhere (IE., the legendary engineer's ability to 'repair all damage'), these officers *can* be moved from one ship to another in the 'formation' phase...and it does count as the one formation activity in that step.
No player can have more than one legendary officer in the fleet, although he may have none. A new legendary officer card is only drawn when at least one new ship is added to the fleet, by any means, when there are currently none in the fleet.
The Legendary Captain card looks ridiculously strong, IMO. Perhaps imitate the SFB rules and have him act as any other L.O. on his turn, declared at the beginning of the turn.
Also, suggest the Prime Team card be allowed to "assassinate" any L.O. to keep them in check a bit.
The Prime Team idea works pretty well. As to the Legendary Captain - it's powerful, sure, but the fact that the ship cannot be placed on a dreadnought limits the amount of punch he can contribute to, and the inability of a ship he is on to go into 'Reserve' means he also acts as the 'bullseye card'. Every single other player on the table is going to be shooting at that ship. I tend to doubt he'll last a whole round, but it does need testing in practice.
(I was thinking of actually giving him a point value for killing, too, but I really think the ship he is on will be the #1 target on the board, already)
It depends on the number of players, in a smaller game (2 or 3 players) even this guy on the largest possible ship he can be on is a problem.