|Archive through April 12, 2012||25||04/12 06:17pm|
|By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 02:29 pm: Edit|
I don't know. I agree that 25% is too big but not by much. While volume calculations would be interesting I don't think they have to be rigid definers. Maybe Lyrans have more open spaces or some auxilliary open spaces. Maybe they like large halls with catwalks and balconies. Maybe crew quarters have 12 foot ceilings so they can sleep eight feet up. I think if volume is close that's good enough (+/- 10% should be a non-issue).
I think scaling back to +20% on the original CA is going to be good.
|By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 02:38 pm: Edit|
Volume is only one factor in my thinking on these, but it's a fairly significant one (SSD box-count being another major one).
I like looking at volume because it helps to wash out the differences in shapes of the ships. They can be misleading when only viewed orthographically. Ships like the Fed CA look larger than they really are, when viewed from above (that saucer is quite thin, but the eye sees a giant sphere). The Lyran is among the easier to keep straight, since they're so flat, but more dimensional ships like the Tholians are more tricky.
|By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 02:51 pm: Edit|
On my earlier suggestion on engine size, I understand that the Lyrans have smaller engines, about the size of Klingon/ Kzinti engines.
I still think they are out of scale from the ships.
|By Patrick H. Dillman (Patrick) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 03:10 pm: Edit|
Looking at the Lyran CA at 125%, it seems just a bit too large. However, I'm surprised at just how little its too large. Maybe a scale back to 120%?
It really looks too big next to the D7, but okay to the Fed CA, IMHO.
|By Dixon Simpkins (Dixsimpkins) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 06:17 pm: Edit|
I think 120% would be about right.
|By Chris Proper (Duke) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 06:34 pm: Edit|
Xander, thank you for the size comparisons. 125% looks fine to me, 120% would work.
|By Scott Iles (Smrl) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 07:28 pm: Edit|
125% would work for me, but 120% would as well.
|By Charles Chapel (Ctchapel) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 07:30 pm: Edit|
I like the 125%. If it is scaled back, please keep the engines this size.
|By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 08:31 pm: Edit|
Remember that the CL and CA are two sides of the same coin (one is just narrower) so they have to stay the same length of hull.
Hmmm, thought that the CL was a little shorter (fore/aft) than the CA as well as thinner in the spontoons...
Shouldn't the Lyran CA engines be about the same size as the Klingon D7/Kzinti BC engines??
Still think the CL engines are too small...
|By Chris Proper (Duke) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 09:07 pm: Edit|
Has anyone weighed the minis? That might give a feel for how much mass each ship has.
|By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 09:28 pm: Edit|
Consider "being" size how much bigger is a Lyran than a human or Klingon or other?
How many decks are supposed to be on a Lyran CA v Fed CA v Klingon D7 v Kzinti BC?
When I looked at the first comparison and read SVC comments about the fuel in the Fed CA I though that the Lyran ship should have an engine spacing that would fit just inside the D7 (where the engines attach to the rear hull) to look 'adequate'.
Xander gave us just about that and I would say close enough for me. I think 20% is too small but maybe 22-24% is simply splitting hairs. I keep trying to pichure this as the CL and then having those both designs turned into trimiran hulls.
|By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, April 12, 2012 - 09:48 pm: Edit|
A Lyran is roughly human/Klingon-sized; see the art shown here.
How big are the proposed Lyran CA sizes compared to the Kzinti BC? (I would imagine those two cruiser minis facing off in close quarters on a regular basis...)
|By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 12:58 am: Edit|
lyran is here
|By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 03:34 am: Edit|
I'm still working on my final input on this issue, but this image may prove useful for discussion.
|By Charles Lister (Daboss) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 05:13 am: Edit|
the 125% version would be my preference based on appearance.
|By Donovan A Willett (Ravenhull) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 06:45 am: Edit|
I'm leaning towards 125% being too big, but 115% looks good to me.
|By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 07:07 am: Edit|
I say 115%, no more than 120%.
Garth L. Getgen
|By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 10:25 am: Edit|
Thanks for the links. Essentially the size of the beings is a wash then in reference to hallways, bulkheads etc.
Since the Fed Klingon Lyran Hydran and Kzinti essentially all have external engines on their CAs these are also a wash (although I am not sure how much fuel is stored inside the main hull of those ships with smaller engines like the Hydran RN).
If we look at the main hulls with the engines eliminated the main body of the ships should be similar in size/displacement if the crew units, internals, and such are similar. The exceptions being that the fed CA may have more 'plush' crew quarters than the D7 which is likely to have not much more than a bunk and small storage compartment (and likely no showers ).
Felines have been protrayed in our own history as an aloof and mysterious creature of comfort (or royalty) so I would tend to think that they would favor the feds more than the klingons here.
|By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 12:31 pm: Edit|
Yeah, I like 120%.
I admit that it might make the DN a little too big.
|By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 01:00 pm: Edit|
I should have 3D models of the Lyran and Fed CA that I can work with, tonight.
|By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Saturday, April 14, 2012 - 03:37 am: Edit|
115% above the existing baseline model size seems to be the magic number. I'll post my study images tomorrow.
|By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Saturday, April 14, 2012 - 05:51 pm: Edit|
Here's my study drawing, confirming my recommendation for a 115% scale-up. It's based on a number of factors, but I used box-count and habitable volume as the two main drivers.
Lyran CA Scaling, compared to Fed CA
|By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Saturday, April 14, 2012 - 06:16 pm: Edit|
My only concern with that diagram is that it doesn't include the warp engines.
Remember that the Lyran's put much of their engine guts/parts/fuel "inside the hull" (like the Klingons and Kzinti), while the Federation (and Romulans, and Gorn) use the warp nacelle, itself, for all of that.
So part of the hull of the Lyran ship as you have rendered it is actually not 'hull', but warp engine fuel (or whatever). As a result, it's not a direct comparison to the Fed CA, whose hull has none of that...it's just pure 'hull' (ship systems).
|By Tony L Thomas (Scoutdad) on Saturday, April 14, 2012 - 06:43 pm: Edit|
I think the 115% version looks just about right.
|By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Saturday, April 14, 2012 - 06:48 pm: Edit|
A valid point (which maybe puts it back to the 120% number).
However, even at 115% it is still a bit bigger than the Fed.
I specifically excluded the warp nacelles and supporting pylons (which seem proportionally bigger on Lyran ships than on Feds, possibly due to fuel storage or warp reactor space within them).
Also, Lyrans don't seem to favor the "creature comforts" that the Federation do and the spacious quarters and "bowling alley" on a Fed CA would likely be volumes used for other purposes on a ship in a more militant empire like the Lyrans or Klingons. The bunkarage amount/volume for fuel is also an unknown; Feds might carry more for longer ("5 year mission") range, the Lyrans might expect to build cheaper ships that need to be supported more often.
In my opinion, the Gorns ended up a bit too small. In the end, we didn't sweat them too hard.
|By Mike Dowd (Duellist_69) on Saturday, April 14, 2012 - 09:53 pm: Edit|
Well the 'bolwling alley' space on a Fed would likely be a 'small game hunting' area on a Lyran ship...
|By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, April 14, 2012 - 10:34 pm: Edit|
I told mongoose 115%
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