Jindarians not just an event , but a player race
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Jindarians not just an event , but a player race
It seems that the rules regarding Jindarians in F+E treat them like a random monster.
How Insulting
Lets try to be politically correct and make them into a race that can be played.
Any suggestions????
It seems like it is possible, but would likely be as boring (if not more so) than playing the Orions--the Jindarians aren't so much interested in interstellar conflict, and mostly wander around trading. A player Jindarian would likely just have some caravans on the map somewhere and victory conditions based on generating income. And probably would have limited incentive to fight anyone.
-Peter
Some people LIKE playing Orions.
Some People have played Orions in an F&E campaign. (seriously modified rules, of course).
Some People have a natural ability to think like Orions.
And finally, there are some people that enjoy the "fun" perks that Orions provide (atleast in a SFB setting like being able to Hype the engines and use the stealth features effectively.
It should also be pointed out that even in the real world, there have always been those willing to trade with both sides of a conflict for profit (like Orions) as well as those willing to maintain their neutrality while conducting their normal life styles. (one could argue, that Sweden, Switzerland, the Vatican City and Spain all fit into such a catagory during WW2).
It should be possible to construct a player option for the Jindarians that fit that last model...with the caveat that if a player unwisely attacks the Jindarians...many bad and sundry things could happen upon said unfortunate player...
The challenge will be to "tailor" the abilities, numbers and locations of the various Jindarians into a F&E setting that preserves game balance.
might be a pretty tall order.
Jeff wrote:
>>Some people LIKE playing Orions.>>
Seems likely.
>>Some People have played Orions in an F&E campaign. (seriously modified rules, of course).>>
With seriously modified rules, then they aren't playing the Orions. They are playing something else that isn't the Orions.
Given the rules as presented in regards to the Orions, it certianly might be entertaining in theory, but the Orion player is relegated to about 10-15 minutes of play time for every 4-8 hours of game, more or less. Which might work for someone, sure, but I suspect not that many people.
>>And finally, there are some people that enjoy the "fun" perks that Orions provide (atleast in a SFB setting like being able to Hype the engines and use the stealth features effectively.>>
Sure. But we aren't talkng about the Orions in SFB (who are certainly entertaining to play). The premise of this thread is "Why can't we make the Jindarians in F+E work kind of like the Orions?". The obvious answer, really, is "Why would you want to do that, given that the rules for player Orions are mostly ignored?"
>>It should be possible to construct a player option for the Jindarians that fit that last model...with the caveat that if a player unwisely attacks the Jindarians...many bad and sundry things could happen upon said unfortunate player...>>
Oh, it certainly seems likely that one *could* come up with rules for player Jindarians. But again, assuming the Jindarians are to behave like they were historically designed, they would likely be even less interesting than and just as play time limited as the player Orion rules. You have some caravan "fleets". You move them around the map, trying to avoid interaction with any of the warring empires as you attempt to maximize trade profits. Occasionally, you might accidentally end up in a fight with someone. Sounds like a blast.
You could just, like, invent "Empire of the Jindarians!" which would involve fighting and taking over territory and whatever, which might very well be fun, but is:
A) Not playing the Jindarians as they were designed/envisioned as a race.
B) Not going to fit into the established scenarios all that well.
Might make for a fun variant game, but so would major empire Tholians or aggressive empire Orions.
-Peter
Actually I wasn't looking for alternative Orions.
I see the Jindarians as being the race which maybe cant win the game but can play the foil and cause someone else to lose through economic failure.
I see the Jindarians as traders and shrewd merchants. Remember in their race description they are alluded to as gypsies.
Maybe their objectives can be measured by economy but I would see it more of who can do the best swindle and get away with it. I think it would be fun to be able to do a little horse trading with the empires.
I see Jindarians seeding a worthless section of an asteroid field with some dilithium then selling the location info to the locals at a HUUUUGE profit then just disappearing. Or better yet sell some field in a neutral zone to rival empires and sit back for the firework show.
I also see the Jindarians going out of their way to deprive an empire of economy if said empire is being belligerent to them. Hey in most systems convoys pass through or by asteroids, or are they.
Plus they could be employed as the ultimate spies on another empires ship movements since they can sit in a populated system and not be detected unless heavily looked for.
There is lots of fun to be had when you can mess with the other players.
Reid wrote:
>>Actually I wasn't looking for alternative Orions. >>
Not literally, no. But as F+E works, that is pretty much the only way they could work out and fit into the game.
>>I see the Jindarians as being the race which maybe cant win the game but can play the foil and cause someone else to lose through economic failure. >>
Sure. But that throws a huge wrench into the already very teniously balanced game of F+E. And also results in a player who doesn't do much most of the time.
>>Maybe their objectives can be measured by economy but I would see it more of who can do the best swindle and get away with it. I think it would be fun to be able to do a little horse trading with the empires.>>
Certainly an interesting possibility. But I don't think it is something that could fit into F+E that easily. And again, would result in a player position that generates 10-20 minutes of play time every 8 hours of game. While the Klingons and Lyrans storm the Kzinti capital, the Jindarian player would sit around hoping someone would trade with them.
>>I see Jindarians seeding a worthless section of an asteroid field with some dilithium then selling the location info to the locals at a HUUUUGE profit then just disappearing. Or better yet sell some field in a neutral zone to rival empires and sit back for the firework show.>>
Sure. But F+E doesn't really have rules to reflect this sort of activity.
>>I also see the Jindarians going out of their way to deprive an empire of economy if said empire is being belligerent to them. Hey in most systems convoys pass through or by asteroids, or are they.>>
Which creates huge balance issues similar to the Orions, and is one of the reasons that most folks tend to shy away from player Orions too.
>>Plus they could be employed as the ultimate spies on another empires ship movements since they can sit in a populated system and not be detected unless heavily looked for.>>
F+E doesn't have hidden movement. You already can see an empire's ship movements.
>>There is lots of fun to be had when you can mess with the other players. >>
True. But again, F+E isn't well suited for that so much.
-Peter
GWBison wrote, "I see Jindarians seeding a worthless section of an asteroid field with some dilithium then selling the location info to the locals at a HUUUUGE profit then just disappearing. Or better yet sell some field in a neutral zone to rival ...."
I see a Prime Directive module in the making. In fact everything you described in that post sounds like the plot line for a string of role playing modules. It doesn't sound like part of a Stratigic Game though.
DGK-
I agree as well, everything that was said sounds like a great RPG series of modules... maybe the Prime Team has to figure out WHO put the dilithium in the worthless asteroids, Jindarians, maybe sneaky Klingons, maybe the money-grubbing Feds, maybe Orions who want to surprise and capture whoever investigates...
-John
Yeah, see, I think all of these ideas would work very well for a series of RPG adventures. Or a cool SFB campaign or series of scenarios--maybe like you get a caravan of Jindarian ships and go through a number of scenarios with some political or economic income rules or something. All very viable.
I'm not, however, seeing this as a really viable idea for F+E, or at least as something that would go into the basic General War campaign--maybe a alternate set up game using the same rules but focused on the Jindarians or something.
-Peter
I wrote these like 5 years ago:
http://goodsects.gotdns.com/Jindarian Caravans.pdf
I thought they were pretty good, though I think they published a shipyard SSD right after that I didn't account for.
Email me at bad_syntax at yahoo.com if the link doesn't work and I'll send you a copy.
get a 404 file not found error
wrong topic.
You could try http://72.190.92.165/Jindarian Caravans.pdf instead.
Make sure you copy/paste that into your browser as I'm not sure the forums like the space in the name.
Eric,
"If the caravan is player controlled he can request the caravan leave the hex, needing a ‘6’ on 1d6, but can choose to move any direction."
Why does a player controlled Caravan have to ask to leave a hex. Shouldn't it be determined by the amount of resources left to be mined/prospected?
As the Jinarian's are supposed to be stealthy there is no rules for finding/hiding a caravan. I thought caravan's are supposed to be hard to find.
I think initially I wasn't thinking of them as player controlled. I think the logic there was that the caravan isn't going to leave if there are resources still there, but the leader can always try to talk the other ships into "greener pastures".
Well there aren't rules now for any hidden units in F&E, so I didn't add them for the caravans, but they could just be hidden and detection would be a random number, say '6' on d6 if enemy units are in the hex, though I think it'd be more likely they would be found if they are in a planet hex as the planet has civilian ships out doing mining.
As I said, I wrote these years ago, some other things:
- Perhaps they should reduce the EP of the province by 1, or if they are in a planet hex by 2, to make them more likely to be annoying.
- If they happen to get to an asteroid hex (the large scale map has a few) they get double the EP, and never have to leave, but if 2 caravans enter the same hex combat is always automatic with the winner keeping the hex.
- Perhaps a roll to see if they get any EP from a hex, to make them move around a bit more, kinda like on-map surveys.
- Can they be bribed into helping? I'm not sure about their history, but I am sure they'd be expensive as heck. Or perhaps each 5 EP or something increases the chance a caravan in a battle hex jumps in (each 5 EP being +1 to the '6' needed on 1d6), and whoever pays the most gets the benefits (but both players lose the money, which goes straight to the caravan's loot).
- After I wrote this they came out with asteroid construction ships. Perhaps if a caravan is in an asteroid hex, it can build these (which cannot leave hexes), meaning asteroid hexes are spawning grounds for new caravans.
- Asteroid ships should probably require double the repair slots (but at half cost) to fix, as replacing all that armor is more time consuming, but at least its cheap.
If anybody is seriously considering playtesting these I can go back over them, add some notes here and there, ensure I make them easier to play as a player, etc, but like I said, I wrote them 5 years ago... kinda wish they could be in a Captain's Log, that'd make me all giddy 
I'd be willing but I dont have the most current set of rules or a gaming group big enough to run a game
We could use Eric's map program to play a small scenario to see how it works.
We would need to work up rules for hidden movement and rules to detect the caravan's if the player is looking for them.
I also think you should not know which hex you are loosing EP from.
Maybe you should not know which part of the empire you are loosing EPs from unless you look for them. Maybe a second part would be to determine the area, and then the next turn the hex. Just a thought.
I like the idea of hidden movement for a caravan unless the empire is looking for caravans.
another problem I possibly see, how many caravans does one player control/ how many players can control a caravan each. Does one player control all the caravans in the whole game or do we have a separateplayer for each caravan, can either be a quite daunting task which can domassive damage toImperial profits or a heck of amess for the game judge getting each player to do their moves
If using hidden rules, if the caravan is all asteroid ships detection is a '12' on 2d6, if there are other ships the roll is '6' on 1d6. +1 if a scout is assisting in the searches.
But how crazy would you want to be to take on a 50-100 compot fleet that is only sucking 1 EP/turn from you? Perhaps if they got to a planet and took a bit more it could be justified, but I figure most of the time you may know they are there, but let them be as you know they'll move on soon.
Well there are a three ways to "play" them I see:
#1. 3d6 caravans, all 1 player that doesn't play anybody else (except perhaps orions).
#2. 3d6 caravans, each player rolls a die for each, the highest roll gets the caravan. New caravans, even those that are split from existing, force a reroll for both caravans to see who gets em. To keep it balanced the player with the most caravans doesn't get to roll until balance in the force is restored.
#3. Keep them as random NPCs that are occasional annoying, and sometimes downright rude.
Update to the PDF link, since I let my account expire for a few years:
http://www.cooltexan.com/Jindarian%20Caravans.pdf