Since the Products for after the General War havent been writen (yet) I thought a fun exercise might be to decide what Fleet deployments would be appropriate for the various major races after the General war finished, but before the ISC Pacification campaign and the Andromedan invasion occured.

For example, the Fall 168 year Federation order of battle specified 1st, Fleet (Home), 2nd Fleet (exploration(off Map), 3rd etc etc etc...).

Many (most) of the ships that started the war did not survive, or if they did survive, many were in a different configuration (variant type) than what they had been 16+ years earlier.

So, What I suggest is a discussion of what ships should be assigned to what fleets and the duty that they would be expected to participate in.

For example, Given the Orion secession (attempted?!?) secession during the War, should there be a dedicated 9th fleet assigned "just to watch the Orions?". should it be composed of smaller fast anti piracy ships?

Where should the CVA/SCS's be assigned? 1 each to Home, Klingon Border and Romulan Border?

What should the make up of the mothball reserve fleet be? Given that the module R 8 said that the older national guard ships would be replaced by General War era NCL's and FFG's It makes little sense to put large numbers of the old original Light cruisers back into the reserve.

Would a Mothball reserve in year 185+ consist of 18 FFG, 18 NCL, 3 DW, 6 CA's?

How many DN's and DNG, DNH hulls would be stored?

How many X ships were built during the GW and survived to the Peace? would there be enough to have 18(3 for each fleet)? How many Battle Cruisers, and CCH's survived?

Should there be NCD (drone bombardment cruisers) assigned as part of the active duty fleet? or should they be put in the Mothball reserve for possible activation?

Lots of questions, and since it is an intellectiual exercise (meaning that what the Admiralty wants to have may not match what is available) it need not contradict any future F&E products...

Its a "wish list" of what the admirals would like to have in the post war period... not an inventory of what they actually had.

Any suggestions?

What about the Klingons? would they reestablish the Imperial War Reserve? What would they mothball for future use? What fleet organization would they adopt with the Vudar situation being what it is in the post war period?

How many B10-s do the Klingons "really need"?

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Another question: How long do the war hulls last? Would many of the older ones even still be serviceable?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 01:58 pm: Edit

John, that depends on if they survived combat for up to 16 years...

You had production continuing right up to the end so some of the hulls will be rather young incomparison.

The question should also include what the peace time build schedule will be, and how many new construction hulls do you want to include in the fleet, and whether it is worth storing the D5's and NCL's for the mothball reserve fleets and the (in the case of the Klingons) Imperial War Reserve.

You do raise a good question, should the moth ball reserve and the imperail war reserve include ANY war hulls (like D5's)?

One could say that you only keep the best and scrap the rest for whatever salvage value you can scrounge.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Five B-10s per fleet, since that is the most that can really operate together (even then one is keeping half fighters in the bay). North, NR, West, SR, East, TBS, Home, and a fleet in IWR, so that is eight times five or 40. Is that the answer you were looking for? Glad to be of service.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Alan:



No, seriously, the original deployment (IIRC Cap Log #6 a million years ago) called for 1 B-10 or B-11 per fleet (north, Northern Reserve, east(fed border), West (Hydran), southern Reserve and the Home Fleet. Plus they were to sell 1 (2?) to the Romulans.

That is 6 (+2)=8 B-10 hulls.

how many C8 and C9's will they need if B-10's "fill the role" of fleet flagship?

How many C-7's?

Will they need another fleet to guard teh Vudar?

What about X ships?

Lots of questions.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 06:22 pm: Edit

"Fleet to guard the Vudar" Nope, the SR fleet sits right at their door-step. Possibly add 1916 to it's deployment zone.

The C-7/DX replace the old C8/D7C probably, so no more than 1 each.

A C8S/C8V to each of the NR/SR SBs. B-10s to the Capital (Capital Queens).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 06:50 pm: Edit

OK, Scott.

1 B10/11 to "show the flag" and any others in the Moth ball reserve.

same with any C8/9's left over from the "war".

D7C's in both the Mothball Reserve and the Imperial Reserve.

What about carriers and SCS types? keep any active?

What about smaller (D7 or D6) hull carriers, keep any active?

And the DB ships, 1 per fleet as before? or do you go with the Max of 3 per fleet?

and the War cruisers and war destroyers? how many in each fleet, and thereserves?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 07:32 pm: Edit

OK, Jeff, you realize that their is no "post-GW, pre-ISC Pacification", right?

The GW ends because the ISC comes through.

From the GW Timeline (on the SFIN page).

FY184, Feds attack Klingon Capital
SY185, ISC incursion begins (read next to Gorn-Rom neutral zone)
SY186, ISC War of Pacification begins (the ISC moving through the Neutral Zone establishing their BATS)
SY188, ISC Scenario starts, see Cl25 (IIRC)

There is no real "down time" to resize fleets (what 4 turns?)

You're essentially asking what should the starting forces be for the races at the start of the ISC scenario.

An estimate for the Klingons (by my guess):
Border fleets: C7/DX, 3D5W, 3D5, 3F5W, D7V+AD5+AF5, 3F5, D6P/D5P, F5V+AF5, D5S, F5S, 2D5X, 2FX
Reserve Fleets: C8V/C8S, D7W, UD7/D6U+AD5+AF5, D5V/D5B+AD5+AF5, 3D5, 3F5, D5X, F5X, FSX, D5S

But if you read the ISC Scenario in CL25, you'll see the fleets have very restricted setup locations (like the K-North & K-West & K-East)

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Well, this would be more of a Post Andro era issue,

I would more envision 3 B10/11
one in the SR
one in the NR
One Home
(however I think they would be more likely to be replaced by DNH's or BCH's as the large flagships)
Each border fleet would be lead by a DX and eack fleet include one complet X-Squadron for the main division

so I would see the basic Border fleet
DX
3xD7
3xD5X
3xFX
2xF5Q
3xE4 (they buit the tings forever)
2xD5DX (one as specialty ship, one as Fleet scout)
TG
Carrier group (probibly DV group) replacing light carrier
PFT (D6P) replacing medium Carrier

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Mothballs would be War Crurisers and War Destroyers
I doubt they would re-institute the IWR.
Fleets would generally be smaller due to recovering economies, but would be more X heavy to augment the smaller numbers.

The proliferation of X ships would reduce the dependancy on Attrition units, with fewer fleet carriers and escort carriers relegated to Police/Anti-Piracy duties.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 09:34 pm: Edit

I think Tim has the right idea. SInce there is not time for a post GW downsize, this would be the idea for what fleets would look like during the Trade Wars.

Though, considering how trashed the galaxy is after the Andros get done with them, I would not be surprised to see main fleets broken down into border squadron commands that sweep the devestated zones. With one main Fleet in the Home sector to cover everything else.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Don't forget to add one to the Imperial War Reserve... :-)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Scott,

The Federation Admirals wouldnt "know" that the ISC were coming.

With the seige of the Klingon home worlds, the Federation had to be feeling pretty confident... I'm just suggesting that the admirals need to "plan the peace" just as much as they fight the war.

There was a book printed a couple of years ago titled "the Unsinkable Fleet". It was a history of the US Navy as it built the fleet that fought the 2 ocean War that Morrison Wrote about, and then in the last 2 years of the war (1943-45) Admiral King and the admirals started thinking about the size and shape of the post war fleet.

The Midway Carriers, the Worchester class light Cruisers and the Gearing Sumner Class destroyers were all included in the plans as well as all the ships that were built up to 1943... but Admiral King was looking at what the navy was building in the ship yards during the war and looking beyond victory over the Axis.

Look at what I included in the initial post of the thread:

"Its a "wish list" of what the admirals would like to have in the post war period... not an inventory of what they actually had."

If the Allies had managed to defeat the coalition and forge a just peace, then the fleet would (It could be assumed) revert back to a peace time footing.

If you were the CNO of the UFP star Fleet, and you had a set budget to support X number of ships... what ships would you want in your fleet?

The fact that the ISC was coming wouldnt change the need for planning, as no one knew in late year 184 that they (the ISC) were coming.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:18 pm: Edit

well, on the Fed side, I would expect to still see a lot of CA's, especially the newer hulls (not the NCA's) as these still worked well in their peacetime role.

Once again I see the war hulls filling out the Mothballs, good ships with wartime roles but lacking the long term needs of the fleet.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Tim,

IIRC that would fit the R module ship description of the NCL class ships (at least for the Federation). I dont remember if all races war cruisers were written up that way...

What about the CB's? would you also see them in the post war fleet? or should they be mothballed?

Then there is the question of what do you do with the old CL hulls that survived the war?

over a hundred years old and still servicable life left in those old hulls...

The National Guard won't want them, they've been promised all those new shinny NCL's.

Scrapping them seems inappropriate as they are still able to complete missions, (and heck, there seems little need to replace the hospitial ships...) museums might take a few... but not all the hulls.

I could see corporations or commercial businesses take a few... after ww2 losts of corporations bought surplus cargo planes and bombers (and a few fighters!) for business purposes. lots of C-47 cargo planes are still in service in the real world some 60 years after the type had been introduced...

I wonder if there is a need for a civilian version of the old CL class? reduce the photons and phasers, reduce the others systems to that of a large freighter and devote every available square meter to cargo holds.... you might get a fast, durable (heck with all the armor the suckers have installed, it'll make a heck of a blockade runner for some local conflict on the fringes of the federation.

But I digress, there are lots of ship designs that the Federation (and other races) put into service during the GW. I'd wonder if the Federation would want or need to have 1 oaf each type in the active duty fleet... or would they strip the hulls back to the basic hull type (ff, NCL, CA etc) and let the next generation in the next war decide what to reactivate them as...

Makes more sense than having 3-4 NCL type carriers, a CVS, 2 CVB or other strike carrier variant based on a CA hull.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:21 pm: Edit

well, for the CB's those are not in F&E so was not concidering them into the the above, but for the most part I see CX's filling the roles for both the CC and the DN, not only for the Feds but all races..
CL's would probibly be scrapped, some may go to the Police forces as comand ships, I am sure many would see NG employement and possibly some will be retired to Civilian use by Corperate BigWigs. DD's would probibly be retained as they are a good compliment to the CA's but would fill more of an FF role as FFX's filled the DD role.
NCL's and CL's would be replaced by DDX's
StarFleet, more then anyone else would be severly gutted in peacetime since the wartime production was so vast. They will have to make a lot of hard decisions on what to keep, what to mothball and what to throw away.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Now THAT is a new idea worth considering... a Police flagship ship for the Federation (sort of) reminiscent of the klingon D5I and F5I designs from Year 175 and 150 respectively (IIRC).

Based on a CL it would be the UFP ceremonial Flag ship or regional combat command for large anti piracy operations for those times the regular Star Fleet isnt available (or invited).

If the date coincided with the end of the General War the YIS would be year 184+... and there would be any number of CL variants being scrapped at the time... heck why not a ECL conversion that "keeps" the phaser gatlings for "orion Fighter defense"... some body might want to start a proposal on that idea...

Anyway, back to the subject:

The overal size of the prewar Federation border fleets is probably similar to the "planned" fleet for years 184+.

Call it 3FF hulls, 3DD, 3 CL(NCL), 3 CA, 1 CC, 1 DN, 1 TUG, 1 SC, 1 MB(maybe?!?) a commando variant. the Carriers might be rotated thruogh the fleets rather than assigned 1 to a fleet. so you might have 3 DN styled hulls (CVA, SCS etc) rotating between the Klingon Romulan and Home Fleets, and 3 smaller carriers (built on the CVB/CVS hulls) rotating between the Kzinti, Gorn, Tholian, off map area and the Home Fleet.)

Given that the Federation will want to know whats changed after large areas of its space had been occupied by the Coalition... you might see all or most of the GSC force deployed on the F&E map to resurvey Fefderation Space... the whole of the Federation may need to be remapped... and given the Andromedan Invasion just a few years later... having the GSC's around just might fit the Star Fleet Universe history.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 04:46 pm: Edit

I would think the SCSs would still be assigned to each main border, so Klingon, Romulan Home.

DN would be the SCS, CX would be the primary command ship though. Probably each CVB would stay on each border as well. Feds built up a large carrier force, so I don;t thin anything CA sized or better is going to be tossed. I would think most of the NCL/DWs would be downsized and sold for scrap and donated.

Mothballs would be BCH,NCL,DW rather than the old CA,CL,DD,FF.

DWs would be mothballed, and FFs would stay in the fleet. FFX/DDX would start to fill in the lines more and more. However, we know that most of the fleet for the Andro war is still GW hulls and very few X ships. So I would think maybe a Full X Sqadron only for the Home Fleet. With say 3xFFX and a CX per border fleet.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Not saying that cant happen... but IIRC X ships require a X base of some sort... with the cost of the X refit for the base being required.

If you want X ships to operate with each border fleet, I say fine... but that may require the Star Base to be converted to X base status.

With each fleet needing an 'X' bases, you would require 6 (possibly 7, depending if you wanted the off map star base to get the X tech refit) X star bases. I'll have to look, but for some reason I'm thinking the cost of the X star base is in the same price range as a CX... so the balance is you can have your 6 (or 7) X star bases but to do so you get fewer X hulls (like maybe 6 or 7 fewer CX types. (or whatever the number works out to be).

You might be better off anticipating only X squadrons at the Klingon and Romulan and Home fleet bases and leave the Kzinti and Gorn forces with out any X ships.

I don't know if there are that many X bases avialbe by year 184 Fall.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Xbases are only required for normal repair. A Standard SB can still repair them at increased cost.

X Starbases are vastly expensive. But the original border bases are not replaced by the time of the ISC, and defintely not by the Andro War period.

So, Fleets may be operating from XBATS for a long period of time while the economy heals.

By Mark Ermenc (Mermenc) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 05:33 pm: Edit

The battleship question sort of depends on how you see the universe ... the cannon universe where they're "fresh off the block" at this point, or the F&E game universe where all four have been in service since around Y175, and have proven to be so invaluable that no Klingon admiral would ever give them up. Even given the expense of operating a pair of B10AAs on the Federation front, they could never be retired, because they will have the most glorious combat legacy in the entire Klingon fleet. These two titans remove entire fleets at a go ... 10 stasis shots are the threatened broadside that keeps the Federation quaking in port. Their mere existence revolutionizes fleet tactics in theatre.

So, how do you tell a klingon captain/admiral/crew that they've got to give up that ship because it's starving too many servitor races to keep it on the line?

You don't. You'd get a bat'leth in the head for trying. I think the Klingon admirals would rather have 2xB10AA,D6M,D5J,D6S as their force against the Federation than somthing the size of the pre-war East Fleet. It'd be more useful, frankly.


Of course, what they keep will depend on what the Federation keeps.

Look at the US-USSR cold war. The USSR starved itself to collapse to keep up a force it couldn't support, just so that it would have massive troop superiority if the states attacked. They didn't want equality, because they knew they couldn't win with that. US units were better equipped. They needed numeric superiority. The Klingons are in almost exactly the same boat, except for their super-weapons. These are the equalizers that made up for their crappy density. Maulers have been copied now (x-ships). Drones: they've got 'em too. Carriers: theirs are better. PFs: Fed Fancy Fighters. B10? We've got a winner!

So there it is. They need them for density, safe command platforms, and for twin B10AA mayhem. They'll bankrupt themselves to keep them in service, especially if the Feds are keeping decent fleets.

Remember, pre-war the Klingons have the Feds in numbers. There's no reason to assume that that would change ... it's engrained into everyone's psyche. They've got a massive standing army, but it's not nearly as modernized.

Nor will it be ... the feds will have plenty more X-ships because of their stronger economy.

Yeah, the feds will gladly reduce down to a post-war fleet of 3rd fleet proportions ... but it'll be mostly X-ships and specialty hulls. Most of the vanilla hulls will go into mothballs, rather than the scrap heap (the klingons can't be trusted ... we may need them someday) and small ships will be given to the police to replace their losses (the Feds are nice that way), and bolster them against the ever-growing pirate threats (POLs are just no match for double-raiders or worse ... a few DDs or NCLs in the police force may make them think twice). The CL will most likely finally get phased out (they've been trying forever) into hospital ships, special forces commando insertion craft, Police duty, survey, mine warfare, convoy escort and other such "non-military" service.

Remember that this is the first major conflict the federation has seen since its early history (romulan wars). There's no way it's going to be unchanged, especially if the Klingons roared across the border and ripped up Fed space. Federation member races will demand extra security. They gave up their national forces in favor of a united star fleet, and now they want a return on their investment. They don't want to see their planets devastated again.

The Federation knows it can win ... it forced the coalition to the barganing table ... it's going to keep some teeth to make sure the coalition plays by the rules ... at least for a few years.

Federation "inspections" of coalition fleet zones using X-scouts so they can't hide anything, special operations teams of commandos and prime teams for espionage and rescue, rapid response fleets of fast & x-ships, all of these will be earmarked ... after what they endured, the Federation is going to let its admiralty play tough with the Klingons, and why not? Time is on their side. They have a stronger, healthier economy. They can afford to match strength in theatre until the Klingon High Command caves to the pressure and begins disarmament talks. The Feds are ruthless negotiators. Keeping X ships costs Y EP, but forces the Klingons to open negotiations with us, allowing us to leverage Z EP in neutral zone rights, trade and tribute treaties, and a lower ongoing cost when we end up with a smaller fleet "someday", all thanks to disarmament talks that wouldn't have been possible without breaking their bank first. They'll do it.

I doubt the admiralty would have expected to be past this phase by the time the ISC get their feet wet.

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 09:29 pm: Edit

Mark's point about the Klingons' mothball policy is well struck. I remember my friend's comment the first time he read the Klingon OOB and saw the large mothball fleet; "What, did the Soviets colonize Klinshai?". The Klingons have shown a propensity for large numbers of mothballs in the past, why would that change after the war? I could see them re-establishing the IWR, but converting it into mothballs to save money (gotta love them Cat-C divisions, er, ships).

As for the Feds, along the lines of a sea change in Starfleet thinking (and in addition to Mark's excellent musings), I could see the Feds mothballing or scrapping the majority of their regular line hulls (keeping the war hulls on active service) in order to keep a fighting force in the field. Those CAs are expensive to operate and in the immediate aftermath of the GW and ISC, I could see the bulk of the CAs, along with the DDs and FFs, going into mothballs as an emergency reserve. Conversely, they may very well keep most of the existing CLs in service, modifying them to fill in for the CAs and DDs that would normally be 'boldly going' about. I could even see a mass conversion of CLs to CLDs (including mothballing a good many of them afterwards); the hulls have been holding up extremely well and in the 'accidental' drone configuration were more versatile than their NCD bigger brothers. The CLVs, if any still survive, would be phased out, probably being replaced either with CVS or NVS.

The Feds might even junk the CVBs entirely (while awesome pieces of kit, F-15s are hideously expensive to maintain as novelty squadrons).

As for the big boys, CCs I can see remaining on active duty, filling their traditional peacetime roles. The BCs and BCJs would also most likely remain active. It's the non-heavy DNs that I could see going into mothballs (perhaps 1 per fleet), as the BCs and X-cruisers fill the command role of the DN.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 09:51 pm: Edit

The Klingon/USSR analogy is very striking... I wonder if they (the Klingons) would have tried experimenting with a Cat- A, Cat-B Cat-C staffing systme for the ships in the various fleets?

It would be interesting...different from anything previously presented in SFB AFAICR.

(in a sense they did with the historical order of battle for the GW campaign. (the active fleet CAT A. Imperial Reserve Cat B and the traditional Mothball fleet is cat C...)

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 08:37 am: Edit

Alan, the Klingons have wisely dealt with that issue with their B10- conversion, allowing them to field a full 13 B10 hulls in one battle force. :P

Of course, the right answer is that they'd need 5*B10+DX in each fleet to kill everything they pursue.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 11:23 pm: Edit

On the subject of hulls being scrapped and such, it occurs to me that the Coalition could make some hay out of "unconverting" their maulers. I know, you can't undo the mauler conversion in F&E, but the effect can be simulated by scrapping the ship at the shipyard and building the base hull. Let's look at the effect on the various races:
For the Lyrans:

• The STL has its center section cut out, elements of the side hulls reworked, and the result is 8 EP towards a new CC (which can be converted during construction to a CCX).
• The STT has most of its guts torn out, but what's left is only 5 EP shy of being a CC (also headed for CCX).
• The STJ gets disected much like the STL, and is rebuilt (for an extra 2.5 EP) as a DD, ready to be converted to a DDX or CWX.

• The FHF scraps to give you half the cost of a FH (upgradable to FHX), or 80% of the cost of a SP (which, being both modular and upgradeable to a FH, isn't a awful thing to have).
• The SPF becomes a base SP for just 2.5 EP after being "scrapped" (and can become a FH then a FHX, or just stay modular, or get mothballed).
• The FAL is an odd duck, in that it's not actually a WE hull; it can, however, give you enough parts to build a WE on the cheap (only 1 EP needed), which gets you into the KE and KEX chain (and you want CR 10 X-ships).
• The Klingon maulers, well, they're pretty much parts -- too expensive to operate, so just recycle them.

• The D6Ms that survived the war are probably later-model D7Ms (which have the same F&E statistics). These get rebuilt as D7Cs, and hope to become DXs. Even if they're D6-based, you still can get a base D6 out of it for only 4 EP. Given the large number of other nice variants of the D6 (the D, G, and U models leap to mind), getting a D6 hull isn't a bad thing.
• The MD5 effectively costs 2.5 EP to rebuild as a plain D5 (and not much more for an NCA). From there, well, it's probably the mothballs, unless some specialty hull is really in demand.