Relative Movement Speeds
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
F&E Proposals Forum:
Relative Movement Speeds
(previously posted in Warbook section)
Relative Movement Speeds
This idea isn't really a change of rules, just a consolidation of movement rules of various ship types into one rule to make it easier to remember. Here's the thumbnail version:
If a ship or group of ships has a higher movement rating than opposing ships, they are treated as Fast Ships in the following ways:
The faster ship can pin two slower ships
The faster ship can withdrawal without penalty
The faster ship does not need to roll for pursuit.
From the view of the slower ship, it counts as half a pinning ship, it cannot withdrawal, and automatically faces pursuit combat.
If a ship has twice the movement rating of an opposing ship, the above rules for fast ships apply, plus:
The slower ship is a SLOW UNIT in retreat.
The slower ship cannot react to the faster ship's movement (but could possibly react to where they end their movement).
the slower ship doesn't count for pinning (but carried fighters and PFs do).
The last section currently applies to auxillaries, towed FRDs and convoys.
This idea came about while playing around with EY ships, which sometimes face W era ships and sometimes face standard ships.
This consolidation does two things.
1. It's easier to add new ships without a ton of rules. Just give their movement factor and everything follows from there. Slower WEs or national guard ships are no big deal. If there was a movement 8 or 10 ship, it wouldn't require new rules. EY ship movement rules would be taken care of.
2. Being fast or slow is not an inherent quality of the ship, it's depends on who it's compared to. A speed 5 WE would still be able to run away from an auxillaries but would have problems with most other ships. Y ships are fast ships compared to W ships and standard ships are fast ships compared to Y ships.
And how do monitors (which are speed three, can't react, but pin as a full ship) fit into this scheme?
I'll also point out that a hypothetical "move-5 WE" could be pinned by Auxes under your idea.
It's needlessly complicated. I have no desire to go through and check the movement allowances of all the counters in a hex; it's enough to have the "zero/one-half/one/two SE" method. (And yes, it would come up in games, particularly if/when NG ships hit the map.)
I had forgotten about monitors, but I see their inability to react being due to doctrine: they are assigned to protect a particular target.
The number of ships with movements other than 6 is always going to be a minority, so you can pretty much just look at the few that are > or < 6 and count them that way. To me, remembering the movement factor of the various auxillaries and nonships is easier than remembering the special rules associated with each type.
Quote:The faster ship does not need to roll for pursuit.
This leads to things like "well my 6 WE/BH pin pursue your 6 F-DDs and you get away scott free (no pun intended)."
'Pursuit', just doesn't mean chasing after someone and gaining 2 hexes per turn and eventually catching him. Encirclement, terrain (galactic obstacles), etc play a significant part.
IIRC, all GW-era ships have the same warp speeds outside of combat, strategically (David Lang/SVC?), it's just that tactically a WE can go speed 20 and a F-DD can go 30.
If a F-DD and R-WE both disengage and the WE pursues he can still travel at the same Warp 6 that the F-DD can and still reposition himself to possibly intercept the F-DD (the pursuit successs/failure roll).
Now if you intended this for exclusively between MiddleYear/GeneralWar era ships, that could be different.
There has been a proposal that when National Guard ships are added to the game, not only will they go speed 5, but first gen-Rom refits (i.e., the SNA but not the SNB) will be included under the same speed-5 rules.
All his WE comments are based on the idea that this rule would affect the existing WEs if/when that speed-5 ruling is introduced.
In general, I like the idea of having a 'univeral' rule that can handle any speeds that happen to come up through different eras, auxes, or whatever.
The MON vs. Aux thing shows that it may not be that simple. Or, maybe it just doesn't define as many things this version is trying to.
A simple little thought: Faster ships are twice as effective at pinning; slower ships are half as effective. Auxiliaries do not pin at all because they are freighters. Attrition units are always resolved as separate speed-6 SEs.
So, a fast ship is worth '1 SE' if pinning an X-ship, but 2 if pinning speed-6 or slower ships.
Or, a national guard ship (speed-5) is worth '0.5 SE' when pinning normal ships.
This would change the pinning of Monitors, but at least they would pin. And they would pin at least one unit (it might be 1 slow unit, if there were any available to leave behind), since you cannot leave behind half a unit.
This is still a deceptively difficult thing to codify however....
Scott, the line about faster ships and pursuit was an attempt to take the rules for Fast Ships (speed 7) and generalize them to handle any differences in strategic speed.
Currently, a group of X and Fast ships do get off scott free if facing only standard ships. They can get pinned, causing them to fail their mission, but they can avoid combat. The pursuit rule is merely that, during retreat, the faster ships do not need to roll 1d6 to see if pursuit combat happens.
The more I look at it, the trickier the whole concept becomes because of all the current differences. But it's worth looking into before adding NG ships or making early Roms slow. Are they merely slower without consequences or are they treated the same as auxillaries or something in between? Having a general rule would also make writing Early Wars simpler, where there is overlap between speed 3 and speed 4 ships and between speed 4 and speed 6 ships.
Actually no, one of those fast ships/X-ships has to stand and fight. But it would to me make sense if slower ships got a -1 penalty to the pursuit roll, if you have at least one of those ships in the pursuing force.
Robert, I'm not sure what you mean. 523.36 says that X ships and fast ships can withdraw before combat without challenge unless the enemy has X/Fast ships.
But they retreat normally.
523.39 covers pursuit. Some fast ships gives -1 bonus. All fast ships make the pursuit automatic.
Yes Stan, but it's been ruled in the past that they don't just 'get away'. Take this example, two ships are in a hex, one of them is fast. They are attacked by a very large force. During withdraw before combat, the non-fast ship withdraws, leaving the fast ship. That fast ship can not withdraw, as at least one ship has to stay and fight.
From March 24, 2005 Q&A:
Robert Padilla:
I have a question that has been ruled on before(Sept 27 2004 archive I believe), but I think the ruling was in error. It involves Fast ships and withdraw before combat. Two ships are in a battle hex and one of them is fast, and there are no opposing fast ships. The non-fast ship withdraws per normal rules, leaving the fast ship. Now the way I see it the fast ship should be allowed to withdraw, as 523.363 states the order for withdraw is determine any fast/X ships that loose their ability to withdraw, withdraw any ships per the normal 302.1 rules, then conduct the special fast/X withdraw before combat, which would refer to rule 523.36. I would think that 523.36 would trump 302.1 for the rules of withdraw since it is a 'special' withdraw and not an ordinary one.
ANSWER: The thing to rememeber is there are two categories here, 1) non-fast ships and fast ships that lost the special ability, 2) fast ships. In your example, first you determine that the fast ship gets to use the special rule (no opposing fast ships). Then you withdraw the normal ships by the normal rules, and since you only have one normal ship it can't withdraw without permission. Last you withdraw the special fast ship.
Or say you had 12 normal ships, and 5 fast ships, and the enemy had 2 fast ships and 30 normal. First determine that only 3 of your fast ships get the special rule, 2 are treated as normal since the enemy has 2 fast ships. Then that leaves 14 normal ships to withdraw by normal rules, and since the enemy has more ships than you, you get to withdraw 7 of the 14 (which may be any 7 of the 14 including the two (normal) fast ships). Finally, you withdraw the three fast ships, leaving only 7 ships in the hex to fight in combat.
The fast ships withdrawing by the special rule do not get to also count for the normal withdraw calculation, that is wrong. The fast ships get to leave unapposed themselves because they are fast, they don't ALSO get to help other normal ships leave while they themselves leave by the special rule, that would be a double benefit.
Thanks Robert, I had missed that.
But it seems like that it would still be ok to withdraw everything in step 1 if the whole group was fast and none of the opposing was fast, since none of them would lose their special status.
I know it's hard to get a decent group of fast ships in the GW era though.
I wasn't trying to give ships abilities they didn't have, just using shorthand to refer to an entire rule with one line. Whatever exceptions currently apply to fast ships would apply whenever there is a difference in speeds.
That's a good point, if all fast ships then they could all leave. But, I can't imagine any attacker not bringing a fast ship along just so he/she can kill the fast ship that can no longer withdraw. Not a risk I'd like to take as the owner of those fast ships.
The only time I can think of it coming up much is not GW era, but some occasion were one opponent has big tech advantage over the other (assuming the same rules apply).
For example, in EY, the Tholians are speed 6, everyone else is 3 or 4. The Tholians should be able to use that for serious tactical advantages.
Example of Fast Ship Pinning and withdrawl (as the defender), without risking the fast ship.
1) Pin with 1 Fast Ship and 2 Non-Fast Ships (4 SE)
2) Use withdrawl before combat to withdraw 2 SE (1/2 Force)
2a) If attacker has Fast/X-Ships, withdraw 1 Fast Ship
2b) If attacker doesn't have Fast/X-Ships, withdraw 2 Non-Fast Ships first. Use Fast Ship withdrawl to withdraw Fast Ship second.
If Ships remain, fight battle
3a) Put 1st Non-Fast Ship in battleforce (min force requirement)
3b) Retreat the 2nd Non-Fast Ship
There is a way to do this with 3 Fast Ships and 4 Non-Fast Ships (10 SE) that ensures that the defender wont lose a Fast Ship, but I leave that as an exercise for the student 
As the defender, I don't suffer any risk to my Fast Ships and if the attacker wants to use a Fast Ship in open space to ensure that he can kill one of my ships (a FF naturally), so be it. That's one less Fast ship the attacker has to modify a pursuit roll, and a substantial number of ships pinned.
The tactical advantage the Tholians will have is to be able to pin 2 ships out of their hex for every one of theirs, and then withdraw before combat (when defending). Double pinning has less benifit on the attack, but the Tholians are a defensive race
Except that with three ships, 2 non-fast and one fast, you can still only withdraw one non-fast ship, then can withdraw the fast ship. Or worst case scenario, you can only withdraw one ship because the attacker brought a fast ship of his/her own.
I was thinking the point was that if you have all fast ships, then you can withdraw all of them without resistance, unless the attacker brings fast ships, in which case one or more of your fast ships will die.