Joe, Ok, I see what you were reacting to.

what I was saying about SAF's being more effective against a base with no minefield at all is based on the fact that this proposal would give all existing SB 2 free minefields. so to make the SAF be just as effective against a SB with this rule as without this rule it should be balanced as being agains 2 minefields.

then if the minefields have already been cleared (or if going up against a base that never had a minefield built for it) it would end up being more effective that a SAF is against a base today.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Ha ha very funny you guys crack me up.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 07:47 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Ha ha very funny you guys crack me up.

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By Brad Preston (Bradpreston) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 07:50 pm: Edit

My intention was not to introduce mines into the game. That is just nuts. I'm sorry I even brought it up.

The intention was to introduce a unit that could help mitigate the effect of strong fixed defenses. Of course a price would have to be paid and its utility would be limited.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Brad, teh problem is that if you bring in Yet Another Tool To Weaken Fixed Defenses it will either not be worth useing, or will hurt the alliance early on. we are already seeing fixed defenses being worth less then they used to be (but still being just as expensive)

if you do manage to make something that costs just exactly as much to use as it is worth then why bother with the added complexity? if not useing it doesn't cause a penalty and useing it is a wash it's back to not beig worth it (if for no other reason then you sub a specialized ship instead of the generic version)

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Mines and minesweepers are in the game.

See, that ship is mine....and that one is mine....and that one....

And your job is to use your stuff to sweep what's mine!

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 01:11 am: Edit

I still plan to work on an Integrated Minefield/Minesweeper set of rules.

Something to add to the defenders 'toolbox'.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Minesweepers and Minefields - Version 1.0

Minefields and Minesweepers have been previously abstracted into the game. These rules allow these units to be fully integrated.

COST

Minefields cost 1 EP per field. This cost includes the cost of deploying the field. The Minefields are deployed by Auxillary Minelayers which are handled by dedicated staff officers. No more than five minefields can be deployed per turn.

LIMITS

The maximum number of minefields per defense is as follows:

Unit	Max Minefields
MB or BS	1
BATS	2
SB	4
PDU	1 per 4 or fraction

Only one unit per location can have a minefield. Multiple colocated base use the Max Minefield of the largest base. If the largest base is eliminated, the number of minefields is immediately reduced to the new maximum minefields .


USAGE & EFFECTS

- Each Minefield provides a COMPOT bonus to the Base or Planet it is assigned to. Minefields must be assigned to a Base or Planet when deployed. The COMPOT for each minefield is equal to the BIR selected by the attacker. If the attacker selects both BIRs, then the COMPOT of each minefield is 1 / 2 (rounded down) of the total BIR.
- Minefields provide an additional offensive ability against units using special abilities against the unit protected by the minefield or any units which must be assigned to a 'base' (i.e. FRDs, Convoys, Auxilliaries, etc). This reflects the necessity of these units to actually penetrate the minefield to reach their target. The Hydran FSP is immune to this effect.
- A Minefield can be eliminated ("swept") by a Minelayer performing the Minesweeping mission (see below), or if the controlling base is destroyed.


PENETRATING MINEFIELDS

- The following units have systems which require that they 'penetrate' a minefield to reach the range where they can use their special systems:
SAFs
SFG ships
Maulers
Troop Ships Making a Marine Assault

- A unit using one of the above systems must roll a D6 and consult the the following table before the directed damage step. If the unit is destroyed, it may not use the system. If the unit is crippled it may use the system only if the crippled side still indicates the system is present (i.e. Troop Ships with a G on the crippled side). SAFs which are crippled are treated as disrupted for purposes of making their special attack.

#mines	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11+
1	D	C	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	D	D	C	C	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	D+	D	D	C	C	C	-	-	-	-	-
4	D+	D+	D	D	C	C	C	C	-	-	-
5	D+	D+	D+	D	D	C	C	C	C	C	-

D+ = Crippled and any Escorting Ship Destroyed
D = 1 Ship or Unit Destroyed
C = 1 Ship or Unit Crippled or Disrupted
Modifiers:
Penetrating Ship is an X-Ship: +1
Escorted by a SC4 Minesweeper: +1
Escorted by a SC3 Minesweeper: +2
Escorted by a SC2 Minesweeper: +3
Escorted by a Adhoc Minesweeper: -1
True Minesweeper voluntarily cripples: +1
Mauler reduces COMPOT: +1
SAF: +4

- One or two Minesweepers may be assigned to escort a unit attempting to use its special system against a unit in the minefield. Apply the above indicated modifier to the die roll when determining if the unit successfully penetrated the minefield. Any negative effect rolled is applied to the minesweeper and the escorted unit is unable to use its special ability. In the case of a D+, the minesweeper is destroyed, and the escorted unit is crippled.

- Any ship can be assigned as an Adhoc minesweeper. It has 0 COMPOT for the current round and the modifier indicated above is applied to the roll.

- Any true Minesweeper may voluntarily be crippled to add a +1 modifier. This represents the minesweeper voluntarily setting off mines to clear a path

- Any Mauler may voluntarily reduce its COMPOT by 1/2 to add a +1 modifier. This represents the enormous Reserve Power a Mauler can allocate to self preservation when in a minefield.

- An X-Ship recieves a +1 modifier when attempting to penetrate a minefield. This represents both the Reserve Power of an X-Ship as well as the improved detection and targeting capabilities.


MINESWEEPING

- Minesweeping is performed by Minesweepers to eliminate minefields.
- While Minesweeping, the Minesweeper can be directed at 1:1. This directed damage attack does not count as the one allowed directed damage attack per battle round. Additionally, a Mauler or SFG cannot be used against the Minesweeper.
- At the end of the battle round in which the Minesweeper performed its minesweeping mission, determine if the minefield has been eliminated. This is done as follows:

Minesweeper Status	1-	2	3	4	5	6+
Uncrippled	U	S	S	S	S	S
Crippled	U	U	U	S	S	S
Destroyed	U	U	U	U	U	S

S = Swept
U = Unswept

Modifiers:
+1 for SC3 Minesweeper
+2 for SC2 Minesweeper
-1 for Adhoc Minesweeper

X-SQUADRONS

If 6 X-Ships are included in the battle line, they have the same abilities as a SC3 Minesweeper. This ability can be applied as an Escort bonus to the Mine Penetration Mission or used to make a Minesweeping roll at the end of the Combat round.


MINESWEEPER COST
Same as Base Hull for substitution
1 EP Conversion
No more than 1 a turn.

INITIAL DEPLOYMENT
1 Minesweeper per Fleet, split between SC3 and SC4 minesweepers.
1 Minefield per BATS, 2 per Non-Capital Starbase

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Hmnmm, you forgot about ESGs....

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 12:12 am: Edit

X-ships should not suffer the ad-hoc penalty if serving as an ad-hoc minesweeper (i.e. the +1 cancels the -1 ad-hoc)

as for ESG's, they are an odd duck, if you are lucky they give youa significant advantage when sweeping, if you are unlucky they can be a significant liability. (an active ESG WILL clear all mines in it's radius, but an active ESG will clear ALL mines in it's radius )

given the scale we are talking about I think it's reasonable to consider them a wash.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 09:33 pm: Edit

DavidL, I don't think so, after all with any reasonable precautions, the Lyran would have the best chance of 'sweeping' a lane through the field unless it was very thick (a mine in every hex for 5+ hexes of depth or multiple mines per hex).

Against a standard minefield, a squadron of 3 ships (each with 2 ESGs) would have no problems getting through, even if it was a Hydran field with hellbore captors...

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

OK, X-Ships don't receive the Ad-Hoc penalty.

Each level of mines represents one standard minefield. So should Lyran Ships receive an automatic +1 to reflect the ESGs?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Stewart, all it takes is one place where there are several minees togeather and the Lyran ships will be in deep trouble.

if you are setting up a minefield that you know lyrans will be trying to sweep you will have pockets that are dense enough to hurt them.

the ESG/Hellbore interaction has been revised so that the ESG´s are very effective shields from hellbores (each hellbore is resolved in sequence and if the ESG goes down later shots act as if it wasn´t there) however as far as I know the ESG/mine interaction is still that the ESG sets off all mines it touches and the mine damage is totaled then the ESG strength is subtracted and the remaining damage is applied to the ship.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:45 am: Edit

DavidL, problem with that is to do so would be to not use a standard minefield (it will either cost more to 'plant' or it's not be as effective).

Hmmm, what assumptions are you making here, I mean i don't think a Lyran would go beyond radius 1 with his ESGs when told to sweep a possible field...

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 01:07 am: Edit

I'm assuming that a lyran probably won't go beyond radius 0 with the ESG.

but if 3 normal warships can cruise through a minefield it's not much use. it doesn't take to much to thicken it to make this a bade idea however, normally you have different mines set for different target criteria, if you put some that would have otherwise exclusive target criteria in the same place (a reasonable thing becouse you want him to think it's safe becouse a drone or shuttle set it off and bring a ship in there to hit a mine), the ESG will set all of these off at once (plus potentially setting off 1 normal mine in an adjacent hex)

you don't need very many of these points in a minefield to mmake it a bad idea for normal lyran ships to try and sweep the field

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 01:08 am: Edit

in the mine penetration mission the lyrans would have an advantage as they just use the ESG's as extra shields, but not when the idea is to sweep the entire field

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

DavidL, a R0 ESG doesn't protect the ship against a mine [unless the mine is R0 detection, see (G23.616)]...

A standard minefield (M6.4) is only 30x5 for the most part and yes a squadron of DWs can penetrate it easily, now if there were two minefields (either 30x10 or a double strength 30x5) would require more than a single squadron but the cost is for two minefields, not one. Of course, this also assumes that the Lyran wouldn't be looking to see if it is a non-standard minefield as well.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 01:04 am: Edit

(3XX) MINE FIELDS AND MINE SHIPS (Advanced)
By Loren Knight

Mine fields have, up until now, been subsumed into the background of F&E but their presence is not always a given. Additionally the presence and size of a mine field can have great effect on both the tactical level and the strategic level. This rule provides a generalization of the overall use of mine fields.

(3xx.1) MINE FILEDS

Minefields are a unit that may be placed to protect any planet or space born base that is a BS or larger. Sector Bases, Star Bases, and major planets NOT at the capitol can have two mine fields. In the case were there is two or more qualifying units at a location only one can have a mine field but the minefield(s) protect/effect both units.

(3xx.11) Each mine field has a combat rating of 8 plus the BIF chosen by the attacker for that round (I.e., each mine field will begin as 9 to 12 compot) and is factored into the overall compot of the defending force. Each battle round each minefield loses one compot point. When a minefield reaches zero compot (before the BIF modifier) it is removed from play. Minefields are “repaired” during Step 2A of the SOP for a cost of 1 EP.

(3xx.12) BATTLE INTESITY LIMIT: Any defending force at the location of a mine field can have a maximum BIF of three until the mine field is eliminated.

(3xx.13) Mine fields cannot be attacked in any way except by a Mine Sweeper.

(3xx.14) New Mine Fields cost 4EP and can be set at any qualified planet or base by a Mine Layer ship. This is done (at the same time in the SOP a Tug would set up an MB). Obviously the Mine Layer ship must be present at the location where the mine field is to be set.

(3xx.15) Mine Fields reduce the effectiveness of DB and DB Raids. DB reduces the combat rating of a mine field. (Discuss later) Mine Fields reduce the chance of success of any raid. (Discuss later).

(3xx.16) Mine Fields do not require a command slot.

(3xx.2) MINE SHIPS

Every race operated Mine Sweepers and Mine Layers. Their special abilities are explained below.

(3xx.21) MINE SWEEPERS

Mine Sweepers can simply fight with a fleet or focus on reducing a mine field (one at a time each battle round). Attacking a mine field reduces the target mine field compot by one each combat round. While sweeping a mine field a Mine Sweeper can only be damaged by directed damage. Further, each battle round after the first the Mine Sweeper will take one damage point per round while it is mine sweeping and cannot contribute its compot to the over all battle. All Mine Sweepers take up one command slot as any other ship would.

(Note: I haven’t gone over the Mine Sweepers SSDs to determine their compot and cost but I want the main sweeping ability to be separate of their combat rating. So a mine sweeper can be part of the battle (laying its mines and using its weapons) or it can focus on sweeping the mine field).

(3xx.22) SCOUTS AND X-SHIPS AS MINE SWEEPERS

Scouts (or any ship with Scout Sensors) and X-Ships can operate as Mine Sweepers. While performing this function they cannot lend EW and do not contribute Compot to the overall force. No Non-Mine Sweeper ship can enter a battle as a Mine Sweeper. When sweeping mines a Scout or X-ship follows the same rules and is treated as a Mine Sweeper (3xx.21). (If XP ever makes it into F&E it would NOT qualify a ship to act as a Mine Sweeper.)

(3xx.23) MINE LAYERS

Mine Layer Ships can repair mine fields at a rate of one point per battle round. A Mine Layer ship cannot increase a mine field’s compot beyond eight. While repairing a mine field a Mine Layer does not contribute its compot to the battle. It can only be damaged by directed damage while repairing a mine field.

(3xx.24) STATIONING: Mine Ships in the same hex as a unit that is protected by a mine field is stationed at that unit and is protected by the mine field unless operating on the field during combat. Otherwise Mine Ships can be targets of Raids like any other unit.

(3xx.3) RECORD KEEPING Mine Fields and Mine Ships compot levels should be noted openly on paper to the side during a battle.

DESIGNER NOTES: I came up with this due to a comment in another thread and before reading this thread. I really think that mine fields have a profound effect on a battle and it seems strange that they are subsumed to background in F&E. I immediately realized that mine fields and the ships that go with them had to have a system that is separate and simple and required NO DICE. I totally get that F&E combat needs to be straight forward and a simple as can be. I hope this system is simple enough. Costs and ship combat rating would be whatever SVC says they should be. I would say that their cost be higher than what their combat rating would indicate and they should have low combat ratings.

The general function of this rule is to reflect that mine fields, as they damage the attacker, lose their effectiveness. Mines explode and some Captors run out of ammo and reveal their position.

Raids: I cannot help but feel that Raids should be affected somehow but care must be taken to not render them ineffective.

I would like to hear discussion of deployment. My feeling is that all Battle Stations and up have mine fields. All Star Bases and major planets have two mine fields.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 06:56 am: Edit

Loren, it is BIR for Battle Intensity Rating, not BIF, who was a character in Back to the Future.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 10:39 am: Edit

Yet another tactical item.

Minefields fall under that "subsumed into the system" area. Bases already take Mines into account, and on a strategic level, a Minefield is not even going to show up on the map.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 11:37 am: Edit

Mike: The BIR is what you get by combining the Battle Intesity FACTORs or the two players. This rules uses the attackers BIF.

By Michael H.Oliver (Mholiver) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 11:47 am: Edit

ok what about the Lyran ESGs issue (yes I was all the Posts)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Huh? BIR is what you are looking for. There are 3 BIRs really, the attackers, the defenders and then when they combine with the variable.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 03:11 pm: Edit

CFant, I'm no expert but as I read (304.1) the first line says each player selects a Battle Intesity Factor (BIF).

The point is NOT to add the BIR to the compot of the mine field but the ATTACKERS BIF. This is because:

A) if the attacker presses hard he will encounter more resistance from the mine field. It has nothing to do with how the defender conducts the battle. A mine field is its own entity.

B) I didn't want to be adding up to ten points to a mine fields compot; one to four points is pleanty. How much damage a mine field does depends almost entirely on how the attack conducts the battle. So I based the variable on the ATTACKERS BIF and not the BIR.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 03:22 pm: Edit

CFant: To a degree individual ships a tactical items too. Conducting replacements from reserves is a tactical choice. Still, the tactics of F&E combat need to be greatly extrapolated, I get that. It just occured to me that a mine fields affects a battle more than any single cruiser would. It limits PF operations, it limits fighter operations, it limits how ships can fight. Subsuming minefields also eliminates Mine Sweepers and mine layers. The rule is not really just about mine fields but those ships too.

The way I see it the rules is balanced in that every race gets the same thing perportionately. The one problem I see is... well two actually... it will make base and planet assaults harder and it adds another activity to a battle.

I suppose the rule could be modified to say that a portion of a base or major planet is a mine field and it compot can be reduced by the process above. I don't like that much.

As I have it a mine field would be assumed in many cases and would not require a counter but would IF one was eliminated or if the unit does not normally have a mine field and one is added.

ONE MORE RULE TO ADD:

(3xx.17) Mine Fields cannot be moved once set. They can be volutarilly removed and salvaged (like salvaging a ship). This would be done in step 2A of the SOP.