F&E Magellanics
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F&E Magellanics
Hi!
Now that C5 is out, the (remote) possibility may exist for an eventual F&E release for the Magellanic races.
Not only would a Magellanic map be fun to play on in and of itself (and allow for a smaller campaign with less worries over running out of counters or managing massive economies...) it would be a handy tie-in to the eventual Andro War supplement, as not only would one be able to mince those Cloudies with a healthy dose of TR beams, the Alphas would have a setting for Operation Unity.
In fact, since the Mag races don't necessarily break many of the existing templates (Chomak and Yrol could be left as LDR or ISC-esque neutrals in pre-Andro settings, the big three would play in a not-too-dissimilar manner as Alphas and the Jumokians could use Orion rules in their operations from the Fringe) the Andros could be playtested against them as well as the Alphas, since less effort would be needed - in theory - to make the Magellanics work.
Also, the expansion of the Baduvai and Eneen into the North of the Cloud could act as a means of trying out the kind of exploration/expansion rules needed to make an Omega module work...
In all, a smaller Magellanic campaign could one day act as a handy introduction for new gamers into the intricacies of the game, more complex than the intro scenario in the F&E book, yet less daunting than thrashing out the General War!
So, is there much of an interest in the LMC?
Gary
Ken also designed the economies to be smaller than the Alpha sectors.
a) The combined total income for the 3 main races is equal to the Lyrans.
b) The income is spread over an area equal to the Federation.
c) There are no Capital Hex clusters to provide the majority of a race's economy.
Altogether, this adds up to a more "user friendly" F&E setting for tinkering with.
I have on my computer a F&E scale map of the LMC that was posted on here many moons ago...
regards
Stacy
Perhaps the existing LMC notes for F&E could be collated into a half-deecent Captain's Log article - along with a detailed map of the Cloud!
Gary
For those interested in the LMC check out http://www.adastragames.com/downloads/LMC_SFB.html . The last 2 (Map of the LMC and, F&E counter data) though unofficial are the ones you would be interested in.
Chuck
For those in the Sacramento Ca. area I also have copies of the first 5 or 6 LMG F&E scenarios that I would like to playtest.
Chuck
Charles.
If you have those scenarios on file, I'd like to be sent a copy.
das55@cam.ac.uk
I already have the LMC map. There has also been some work done on F&E omega.
THank you!
Can we assume that the F&E map is pretty close to what the 'official' one would look like?
Are there locations for the three Desecrators - or has that not been worked out yet?
So, assuming the answer to the first is yes, the second can be easily given and so on, is there enough in the map and existing pdf - along with those scenarios - to do for a CL article?
(For counters, one could do a pdf with the relevant units and stats and let the testers do the printing...)
EDIT: And it looks like the Maghadim starbase would need to be added.
EDIT 2: And if it is OK, could you send me a copy also? (My email address is in my profile link)
Gary
Gary Carney:
By definition the location of the Desecrators cannot be on the map. The Andromedans arrive late, and you would not want to have the Magellanics know right off the bat where they are.
As to the Maghadim, it is not "the starbase", it is "the starbaseS" (plural), there were three of them.
I would think that the Magellanics could be incorperated into Andro War without being a separate product.
Steve Petrick:
*Fair enough - I guess it would be enough for the Andro player to figure out for himself where to place the bases (I was just thinking of which hexes they were placed in during the regular timeline)
*Of course, you're right about the starbases - I was referring to the stats for each.
Gary
Charles Shevlin,
I was trying to use your profile email, but it didn't go through properly...
If you have an electronic copy of the SMC scenarios, could you please send them to nerrothgamestuff@canada.com if it's not too much hassle?
Gary
I'm interested in getting a copy of this for testing too...
Also the link above to LMC stuff seems to be broken. Is this data still available?
email is "k.bruce16@gmail.com"
Thanks
Kenny
Does anybody have the map/counter data that was originally on the adastra.com site? (the download no longer works)
I am nearly done with an F&E Andro/LMC module (see more over at http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/3524.html) and would like to see if my calculations and conclusions were about the same.
Oh, and my email is bad_syntax over at yahoo.com
Thanks for the files folks. My ship data was pretty darned close so I'm confident I'm on the right track. I used a map from C5 I believe that wasn't quite as large as the one ya'll just sent me (area around chomak wasn't listed for example on the newer one).
But the counters pretty close. I'll keep my values when they conflict, as mine are probably more scientific, and just use other stuff as a guide to what I already have.
Thanks again
I posted this initially under the andro war thread but it is probably better suited here:
So I created a mirror of the official SITs with all the races from the LMC (minus the Chomak, which I don't have enough info for yet). I'll have an updated map soon too.
Anybody know the policy on posting SITs, that aren't a copy or version of existing ones, but are an officially supported race?
Oh, and I've done up some graphics for the ships too, well most of them. So I'll have a PNG I can post with actually Baduvai/Eneen/Maghadim/Uthiki and Jumokian counters. Oh, and I have the same thing for the Andromedans (SIT and Counters).
Here is a horribly looking snippet:
http://www.cooltexan.com/c5.png
As Gary had commented on the other thread, some answers:
- Yes, I can add a small watermark looking hexagon in the background. It *may* make the counter harder to read tho, but I'll try it.
- I picked colors from the map, I'll dig up my LMC counters and make the colors match them, but wanted to also make sure that they don't look like any other races colors so the counters could be used on the same map.
- I use math to determine the counter factors, it isn't an "opinion". I determine the average alpha strike damage to a single arc, and divide by 12 for attack. The defense value is the total # of hits the ship can take, plus half the shields, and divide by 20. The crippled side divide those values by 2. This works *very* well with GP ships, and will usually match up (though there ARE always exceptions). Scouts are not calculated correctly yet, as I'll tone down their damage and stuff to determine their attack without blinding scout channels eventually.
I'll write an app very soon (few days maybe) that'll create all the counters based on the factors in my SIT.
Quote:- Yes, I can add a small watermark looking hexagon in the background. It *may* make the counter harder to read tho, but I'll try it.
- I picked colors from the map, I'll dig up my LMC counters and make the colors match them, but wanted to also make sure that they don't look like any other races colors so the counters could be used on the same map.
If it helps, there is a colour list in Annex #7A of the C5 rulebook, and a small-scale image of the countersheet over here.
(The spare SFB countersheet section of the online store is handy for reference purposes; the five Omega countersheets are also on there, as is the special countersheet that shows the counters for the current playtest empires out in M33.)
Quote:- I use math to determine the counter factors, it isn't an "opinion". I determine the average alpha strike damage to a single arc, and divide by 12 for attack. The defense value is the total # of hits the ship can take, plus half the shields, and divide by 20. The crippled side divide those values by 2. This works *very* well with GP ships, and will usually match up (though there ARE always exceptions). Scouts are not calculated correctly yet, as I'll tone down their damage and stuff to determine their attack without blinding scout channels eventually.
But does that formula line up with what ADB themselves use when deriving the official F&E counter stats?
What I'm trying to get at is not to belittle the work you've put in, but to caution against being too quick to use it alone; so far as I'm aware (and I apologise in advance if I'm mistaken on this), there may be other factors and considerations which are used in-house during the design process that might make the official results (were we to ever get them for the LMC) different to the stats you have to hand.
(And not always in the upward direction. I recall a note in a Captain's Log surrounding the release of ISC War that noted how the Concordium's dreadnought had its numbers lowered in the final cut, relative to what the provisional numbers had been back in CL25; a change which came about after SVC and SPP sat down and evaluated the ship's expected combat performance relative to some of its Alpha Octant counterparts.)
To be clear, I'm not trying to shoot your ideas down. I myself have been trying to struggle with how to map certain non-Alpha systems into new game systems. (I wrote the rules portion of the FC Omega Playtest Rulebook, and I set up a number of threads over on the Mongoose boards trying to look at how to convert settings like Omega and the LMC into A Call to Arms: Star Fleet.) Personally, I would love to see the LMC in F&E, and I appreciate the effort you're putting in to help explore its potential as a strategic setting.
However, while I may have varying degrees of confidence as to how my own attempts at these conversions might work, it would ultimately be up to ADB and/or Mongoose (and those who would, ideally, consider actually sitting down and playing with some of these rules at some point) to decide how close my efforts would come to the finishing line.
I can't say I am able to apply the kind of mathematical modelling you have been able to generate to tackle these issues, so I'm not in a position to speak against your results in that regard. Again, I'm only noting that it might help to clarify what kind of variables ADB use in-house to draw up the final numbers; and where the dividing line between "art" and "science" comes into play.
I went and dug up my C5 counters before you replied to see what they looked like. Kinda wish I had that earlier, may have made making those little silouhettes pixel by pixel a bit easier. Anyway, got it now, though those colors I really think will make F&E style counters too hard to read. I'll see about doing something similar, and apply watermark style hexagons that are still visible, but not so contrasting.
Though I have *zero* evidence, I would think that when SVC sat down so many years ago to create F&E, I would think he picked a Fed CA and gave it 8 attack. From there he went up an down, scaling by what it appeared the ship had. A CL or DD 6, a FF 5, D6 7-8, and so forth. While I'm sure SVC can look at a ship and determine its value pretty easily, he isn't pulling numbers out of thin air. His experience and gut feelings about what a counter should have probably can be quantified. In some cases, like maulers or scout EW, there is no way for me to determine that, those fall into the game designers realm.
However, for more standard warships my method is pretty darned accurate and in most cases, it comes up with the same values as is on the counter. The only things that can screw with me are wacky systems that don't have "hard" effects.
I remember that discussion on the ISC DN... lets see how my system works:
I gave the PPD non-overload, as it has a lot of limitations in getting all 6 pulses to hit. I didn't of course include the PLaF as they don't fire forward. So it has 10xPh1, 8xPh3 and 4xPPD (that only fire every other turn).
My F&E factors: 13-12o/7-6o (o being the PPD symbol). So I'm a wee bit high on the attack, but 16 is way out. If I drop half the Ph3s, as they are side mounted and may not have full arcs, I get 12/6, the actual value.
I'm still tinkering with some of the calculations. For example I'd like to try using the % of the FH arc a weapon can fire in, instead of just a 1 or 0 if it can fire into any part (this would fix that Ph3 thing). I also need to work on the reduced scout calculations. If I had all the data for all the SFB ships, alongside all the F&E factors, I could get something with probably 99% accuracy in under an hour.... getting that data inputted is a bit more of a task 
Also, refits throw things for a loop. IIRC, a Fed CA with no refits was like 7-8, but once you added the plus refit it went to 8-8. In fact, many ships are like that. That includes the LMC forces, which often were a point lower before some refit. I chose about 125 as the point where any refit that was available was done, otherwise I'd need multiple counters for a ship, and that is insanity.
Oh, you can't use BPV at all, as BPV is an overall value, and not an attack-defense. It just so happens that almost all the time, on standard ships anyway, my formulas come up with the same attack as defense. I do use economic BPV to determine construction cost though, and will probably use the difference in economic BPV between 2 variants to determine the cost of conversions.
So my system isn't perfect, I have to assume an EW value as those have *zero* similarities to SFB now, but at least none of the ships are "biased", and all are using the same calculations. So while many ships in the LMC have 1 less attack than the defense, it is consistent. The Baduvai is indeed the best ship in the game, with 8/4 factors but a 9 CR (highest for any ship in the LMC). Surely that 1 extra ship justified their offensives.
The Andromedans unfortunately really suck offensively. A Dominator barely has the offensive firepower of a fed CAR. Their ships are also very short ranged, and they are at severe disadvantages. Their only good advantages are the displacement devices, which help them get in or out of range more quickly, and the fact they can more quickly "repair their shields". So their DD's have to give some other benefits. Some examples of their horrible compot based on BPV:
DEV 23-31
DIC 25-26
SHV 30-20 (Mauler, thank gosh its conjectural!)
DOM 18-25
INT 12-15
PYT 7-10
COB 5-7
VIP 4-7
Oh, and speaking of maulers, the factors make *zero* sense at all. Compare the SFB sheets for a D6M and MD5. They have nearly identical "mauler" capabilities, yet the D6M is 30% higher.
Then look at the D5S vs D6S, again, nearly the same, yet 1 EW diff.
Anyway, when I release my totally unsanctioned Andro War + Magellanic War module I'll have a full write up on how I got to everything. If I can get my computer to work again, perhaps a month or so out.
Eric, you need to stop right now on this and communicate by email with SVC regarding derivative IP and copyright issues. What you do around your game table is your business; when you discuss releasing it, there are legal ramifications.
Jean
WebMom
Eric: releasing your module would be a violation of law and copyright.
Well I've read the web policy and didn't see how this was going to be a violation. I'm not posting anything ADB has already created (the map being the sole exception, but I can exclude it, as its already online). I use a few words for the races like Andromedan or Eneen, but again without any direct large quotes of text that totally falls under fair use (else Disney could sue for me saying "Mickey Mouse" right here). The counters are similar, but weren't a scan, I sat down in mspaint and drew them pixel by pixel, and they are also not exact duplicates. I wasn't planning on reposting any rules at all, just new rules. I don't think I even had any actual tables and there is no way to use it, or even understand it, without owning F&E.
However, regardless of legality, I don't want to upset anybody, so I'm not releasing this to the "public" (in fact my intention was always to have it be only available on here).
So, since I've done lots of work, created a system that I think works, seriously doubt that ADB has given LMC a serious thought when it comes to F&E (and even if so, surely it isn't due out "soon"), is there some reason I can't post some files in this forum, and the andro war forum, on possibilities for a LMC+Alpha Octant battle system that can hold some curious folks over until ADB gives us the gifts that are actual releases?
I'm fine sending it to somebody to approval before posting, and would be happy to write it all up as a possible Captain's Log article, but to shoot down any creative content so absolutely is pretty disconcerting as a fan just trying to enhance something he is enjoying.
I've also considered a computer version of F&E, but it doesn't look like there is enough support for it to justify my time.
Eric? Some friendly advice:
Treat this as if you just came around the corner while hiking in the woods, and you discover you are between a Mama Grizzly (ADB) and her cub (F&E).
Put down your walking stick (plans) and back away from the situation... This is a battle (argument) you cannot possibly hope to win.
Not trying to win, just trying to enjoy myself and contribute.
If that is more than is desired and simply bringing it up is such a battle, the situation is more akin to a Mama scaring off the food source for her cub rather than an act of protection.
Hopefully things are more rational than that, and SVC does't take offense to you calling him a female bear ;)
More to the point, Paramount has a very specific contract that ADB works under, and SVC does not want to risk his livelihood due to an innocent mistake made by a fan.
Eric, I am serious about this conversation needing to take place by email. Fair use flies out the window if it has a negative financial impact upon a company -- releasing unauthorized modules would do that. Folks who want to produce things work with SVC in private so we make sure everything is legal and that things work with the SFU.
Jean
WebMom
I'll shoot design @sfg an email then, and see how it goes. Maybe an F&E computer conversion wouldn't be out of the picture offline.
For all I know, Paramount monitors these forums and is waiting for *any* reason to kill ADB's license if *anybody* non ADB posts anything here. That would be a very valid reason, as Paramount is like the Ferengi of Star Trek when it comes to greed
Subject ended and taken offline... though sure the Magellanic discussion isn't totally over.
One thing I wanted to note for future reference is about the orders of battle one might generate for the "middle years" Eneen Protectorates Navy.
Between the launch of the first "modern" Eneen ship (the Battle Destroyer) in Y58 to the onset of the "war" classes (NCL, DW, and FF) in Y105, the EPN was hamstrung by the inability to upgrade its Early Years "old fleet" to modern warp standards. The CL, DD, and CT are best compared to the G/L-hulls in SFB Module R8; in that they have modern weapons and systems, yet still have more primitive tactical warp drives. (This contrasts with the Baduvai experience, as the Imperium was able to replace the Y-era warp pylons on its own early warships with more powerful ones when refitting them to serve in the modern warp era.)
Their CA (with a YIS of Y75) is a capable ship, but it had to wait thirty years before the Eneen were in a position to build a proper modern battle force around one. This gives the Eneen a relatively unique challenge, when compared to those faced by most other "modern" fleets in known space.
In the Alpha Octant, one key difference between TL 11 and TL 12 warp drive is the ability of the latter to operate using "dash" warp speeds - which in F&E terms translates into the ability to use strategic movement. So not only would a Y-(or G-/L-)hull move less hexes per turn in operational movement, it would also lack the ability to be quickly re-deployed from one trouble spot to another.
Now, we don't yet know what the various operational movement speeds would be in the LMC (since they'd be tied to whatever is to be decided for Andro ships moving off-RTN in Andro War). But if Y-era engines there are deemed to be similarly incapable of using "dash" warp movement, that could be a factor in working out the "middle years" order of battle for the Eneen fleet.
To put it another way, one option could be to assign the "old fleet" Eneen hulls (CL, DD, CT) to the border squadrons: supporting the bases along the Line, patrolling the Eneen-held approaches to the Neutral Worlds provinces, or securing the home systems from incursions coming out of the Core region. The CAs and BDDs could then be grouped into a series of "flying squadrons", acting as a strategic reserve across the Protectorates as a whole in a way that the "old series" hulls cannot match.
Or, each border fleet, plus the home fleet, could have a single CA permanently assigned to it as a local flagship; while any surplus production of that class could be used to head up the "flying squadrons" instead.
So a "middle years" Eneen player in F&E would have to rely on these "flying squadrons" to more rapidly deploy forces from one end of the empire to the other. Any "old fleet" ships would count as more of an investment in a particular region, since it would take much longer to re-deploy them using operational movement alone.
This would make commanding the Eneen navy more of a challenge, but hopefully an interesting one if handled well.
In the long run, the real solution for the EPN would be to adopt the new "war" classes as soon as possible. But in the long decades prior to the onset of such vessels (which covered such conflicts as the Northern War, the First Neutral Worlds War, and the War of Jumokian Independence) the Eneen of that era might need to come up with more creative solutions to their strategic and logistical problems.
Although, the issue may not go away entirely, since the Eneen Monitor is based on the old CL hull (and compromises its movement abilities yet further in order to bulk out its hullform). While each would help bolster the defences of any world or base it would be assigned to, moving one around the empire in wartime might be a problem.