Lampert has the best idea... in my opinion of course.

Jimi

By jason murdoch (Jmurdoch) on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 01:52 pm: Edit

The picket probably saw the attacking fleet going into his own space so will be half expecting it to be going back out at some stage. The retreating fleet wont have its full load of drones or plasma-Ds even if it has no crippled ships. Which makes Joes suggestion of "BIR 10 to NOTHING" very in character for a kizinti fleet with their reliance on drones.
Give the picket a chance to evade to simulate it possibly being in the exact wrong place or asleep on watch. If its a slow unit allow it to get squashed. This is giving the picket a chance to evade a round of combat newly created by the FR rule. Before the FR rule came in that frigate was 100% safe unless it stood in a normal retreat path.
I'd like to see klingon J ships not able to retreat. Not that anyone would be daft enough to have a lone j-ship out there but just in case it happened an extra few drawback might balance out all their benefits.

Last entry on a F5J black box
"Commander it may be a CVA group but those feds don't know how to fight"

By John Robinson (John_R) on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 03:23 pm: Edit

I'm sorry, but does the person the "LaForm Death Spiral" is named for really get a vote here?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 06:40 pm: Edit

I kinda like some of the ideas above, but here's what I was thinking before I read those:

Idea 1) Allow the ships in the FR hex to leave when the retreating fleet moves in. The lone FF on picket duty goes "oh, s---!" and bugs out. The retreat stops in that hex. Down-side ... one could construct a trap that leaves the retreating fleet OOS.

Idea 2) I did NOT like SVC's suggestion that after three hexes, the fleet is automatically destroyed ... again, one could construct a trap whereby fleet could be triple-surrounded and thus a lone FF could "kill" an entire battle fleet. My counter idea is:

a) After three hexes of retreat, the fleet is OOS (regardless of supply range).

b) After five hexes of retreat, the fleet is "exhausted". (This happens at three hexes if the fleet was already OOS.) The fleet cannot use fighters or PFs, nor any other special functions (no EW, maulers, ISC core, G-forces, etc, etc). Additionally, the DEF of the ships is halved.

Idea 3) After two (three?) hexes of FR, the fleet MUST attempt to use standard retreat priorities per (302.73), to include Step 4 which required them to go to a hex with no enemy units. Again, the down-side is one can construct a trap to put a fleet OOS.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Okay, new idea. Or rather, taking ideas from others and working them together:

When a player declares he wants to use Fighting Retreat, he must find the closest hex in supply within six hexes.

The player may choose either the nearest hex by range, or the closest by path-of-least-resistance; ie, if the nearest hex in supply is two hexes away but requires going thru a stack of thirty enemy ships to get to it, the player may opt for a hex range six and take the path defended by lone FFs.

If there are no in-supply hexes within range six, the player must find the nearest supply hex within range twelve and trace a path towards it.

The player must define the retreat path before moving, again the choice is by shortest range or path of least resistance.

The retreating fleet must then retreat, fighting each hex at BIR 10 vs BIR 1, until the fleet moves six hexes or is destroyed, unless the player chooses to stop retreating early. Upon reaching the sixth hex (unless stopped early), the fleet MUST stay and continue to fight out-of-supply (OOS) at BIR 10 vs BIR 1 until the hex is won (ie, only one side has units left).

At the end of the retreat, if still OOS, the fleet must attempt to move to a valid supply point on the next player turn.

If there are no valid in-supply hexes within 12 hexes before a Fighting Retreat is declared, or none within six hexes at the start of the fleet's next movement after having fought Fighting Retreat (ie, the target hex originally range 7-12 is no longer in supply), the fleet must surrender to enemy units. The fleet could move by a clear path to surrender to a different enemy. For example, a Lyran fleet trapped by Kzinti forces could surrender to Federation forces if it could get to them (within six hexes) without creating a Battle Hex agaist Kzinti forces.

The fleet is then interned and held until the end of the war for victory points. The holding power may use (305.24) Option 4 to exchange such ships for their own ships captured in battle.


Garth L. Getgen

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:48 pm: Edit

"Idea 2) I did NOT like SVC's suggestion that after three hexes, the fleet is automatically destroyed ... "

I dunno, I kinda like that. Made me think of Monopoly (three doubles in a row and you go to jail ).

Maybe give the retreating force the option to 'stand and fight' after fighting the first round at BIR 0? Then it would be one of those, if you gonna die take as many of the enemy with you as possible, kind of thing. Of course we'd have to disallow the 'stand and fight' option of there is a enemy base or planet present to prevent abuse, but other than that I don't really see a downside.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 06:08 pm: Edit

I think Robert has hit it on the head. 'Stand and fight' option would be abused like crazy. We are trying to stop the abuse of FR not give it more options for abuse. Still, thinking outside the box will help generate ideas or verify existing ideas which will help us all come up with a workable solution.

Garth's "idea 2" has minimal merit but needs to be fleshed out. Too much tracking (6 hexes or 12 or whatever) is involved the way it is and the masses will complain. I think that rather than go through all the mess of tracking the fleet after it has finished the move and them being exhausted the FR units could lose the use of all fighters/PF and fight the 4th and subsequent battles (if any) at %50 ComPot.

You could also simply say any fleet that has to escape using FR cannot use field repair, CEDS retrograde, or replenish fighters at the end of the turn. (This could have a minimum range if you prefer..."more than three hexes?")

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Of course re-reading my own post brings me to realize that if we were to implement the last paragraph we'd fall victim to the very issue Pete D mentioned about many of the SO/PO rules. Give the game something cool and dump restrictions about using to the point no one will want to. Let's just stick to the KISS concepts.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Lar, There's really not that much to "track". I want to use Fighting Retreat. Before I can do so, I must look at:

1) Am I in supply now? If "no", then go to # 2. If "yes" ... well, I can't think of why I'd want to use Fighting Retreat, but I suppose one would construct a map situation for it. {shrug} I guess the logical rule would be "if in supply before starting Fighting Retreat, then fleet must be in-supply for every hex of the FR." I mean, why would you retreat from an in-supply hex to an OOS hex??

2) Is there a hex within range six that will put me back in supply? If "yes", I must try to get there. If "more than one", then I can choose which hex to retreat to. If "no" then:

3) Is there a hex within 12 that would put me back in supply? If "no" ... well, I'm screwed and must surrender. If "yes", I must retreat up to six hexes towards it. Then, at the start of the next turn, I must look for any hex within range six that will put me back in supply (or perhaps move a Tug closer to use as a Supply Point). If I can do so, I must. If I can't, then the fleet must surrender.


There's no more tracking then there is now to verify that any other fleet on the map is in supply. The only thing you do have to make note of is "this fleet is OOS and used FR last turn, so it must get back into Supply right now."


The whole idea of this isn't to make FR harder to use .... it's to get rid of the 12-plus hex Retreat To Nowhere. As I recall, the Orion fleet was trapped on it's last supply point on the entire map. It then used FR for 21 hexes until it ran out of picket FFs to run over and kill. It then spent the next three turns getting to an ally who was willing to pay to put them back in supply. We're looking for rules that will stop such nonsense, without breaking the game otherwise.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Silly question: Is there any rule that prevents me from intentionally moving out-of-supply and contunie to do so??

I mean, what if I were playing the Lyran and want to take 50-100 ships and move then OOS for five or six turns the Fed space and attack the Gorn ..........

{Obviously, it's a dumb, stupid tactic to try to do, but I've seen dumber things done in wargames. And real life.}


Garth L. Getgen

By Joe Stevenson (Alligator) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 12:35 am: Edit

"Is there any rule that prevents me from intentionally moving out-of-supply and contunie to do so?? "

Yes. Review the retreat priorities.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 02:58 am: Edit

Provided that your opponent is willing to collude with you (such as by not attacking, or by retreating first), you can move as far OoS as you desire (moderated, of course, by your slow movement rate when OoS, and the fact that other rules might intern your ships if they enter certain hexes, or even prohibit entry into those hexes).

(Your example situation is legal, provided the various scenario rules allow the Lyrans to be in Fed and Gorn space. The Feds would, one presumes, play so as to block the effort, but that's sensible play, and not rules-mandated.)

By Joe Stevenson (Alligator) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 11:55 am: Edit

"Provided that your opponent is willing to collude with you (such as by not attacking, or by retreating first), you can move as far OoS as you desire"

Not if you have a path to remain in supply.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 12:16 pm: Edit

I think people are mis-construing Garth's question. During _retreat_ movement a fleet must (almost) always retreat into supply if able to do so. During _operational_ movement, there is absolutely nothing that prevents an out of supply fleet from moving so as to continue to be OOS. Otherwise, there would not be any way to do the Hydran Expedition. So, assuming that it is not othewise prohibited by scenario rules, the Lyrans could (slowly) move across Fed space to attack the Gorns.

Cheers,
Jason

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Thanks Jason, you said what I meant, but more clearly.

Even for retreat, once you're 8+ hexes from a supply point, you're pretty much free to do whatever your opponent will let you do. Step 3 (supply) of the retreat priorities becomes irrelevant (specifically stated in part A of that step), so your only hard limit is not being able to go where you're outnumbered (step 2).

By Russell J. Manning (Rjmanning) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 01:45 pm: Edit

I think I like Option 1 where the fighting retreat fleet does nothing to the forces it is retreating over. I have ended up on the bad end of FR's at least twice in East Wind.

The Coalition forces attacked 1502 and 1504 twice. The first time it happened, I felt, as the Kzinti, I had enough at both planets to win. Paul chose to fight 1504 first. The forces were something like 25 Kzinti ships and a planet to take damage on v. 30 Coalition ships Thinking I could win, I fought long and hard and we both crippled most of our fleet. I only retreating after it became clear I wasn't going to win. Because 1502 was my closest supply source, I had to retreat to 1503.

Paul then chose to fight 1502. When I didn't accept approach, he withdrew before combat, and claimed a fighting retreat into 1503. I was then required to fight approximately 50 undamaged Coalition ships with approximately 20 crippled/out of fighter Kzinti ships. Needless to say, even at BIR0/10, I took some heavy damage while any damage he took was in fighters. Paul then continues his FR onto the planet in hex 1504. So instead of having 30 mostly crippled ships in 1504, he has 50 uncrippled ships in supply that can be left forward in 1504.

Paul did the same move a few turns later. This time, I felt I had no choice but to give up 1504 with minimal fight and accept at least one round of approach so as to not get romped by the fighting retreat.

Paul told me he set it up to be able to give the force in 1504 this one two punch. I personally believe this was a gross violation of the intent behind fighting retreats. My understand it that FR's were set up to be able to get fleets that were purposefully setup to be out of supply, a way to get back into supply. I say, fine, let them back into supply, but they shouldn't be stopping to fight along the way back.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Garth no need to remind me of the "Orion Tour around the exterior of their home province on the way out of Fed space into Klingon NZ." I was the Feds in that game. I saw it all first hand.

I feel that the answer lies in the ideas we have already. Simply taking the bite from the retreating fleet eliminates the abuse of using it to get extra kills (which some people do). Putting a limit on the distance one could travel using a FR eliminates the long crazy FR.

I am for limits to FR moves (at a minimum no more than 6 hexes...I could see 3 however.) Taking away the damage I could agree to as well but may be a bit much if the limit is 3. I do support some sort of language requiring retreat toward (freindly) supply.

I do not support the ships being destroyed after 3 hexes but am not sure what to do with them at that point if they are still in a BH and are surrounded.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Lar, My basic suggestion is that they've run out of fuel and must "stand and fight" in the last hex. Now, is that last hex the third one, as SVC suggested, or the sixth one as I suggested??

Jason, yes -- that was my question. OpMove, not Retreat move.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Russell .... your post adds a LOT of food for thought. Clearly, this was not what SVC intended when he wrote the rule.


Garth L. Getgen

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 05:08 pm: Edit

We have a bunch of different ideas floating around here and it seems two schools of thought on what the problem actually is with FR.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Problem 1: FR allows fleets to move an infinite amount of hexes (or at least as long as there are enemy units in a string and the surrounding hexes meet the conditions to allow FR to continue). This has been evidenced by several players with the extreme being Jimi Laform's "Orion Spiral" capital departure at Origins several years ago where he ran to the Klingon Empire.

Problem 2: FR allows players the ability to punch out additional picket/garrison ships in a (for lack of a better term) cheesy way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Solution Ideas up to now:

Idea 1: (Lampert) Remove ALL teeth from the retreating force and have them deal 'no damage' as they run to safety. This would prevent the long chain of kills but still provides the long bridge to saftey.

Idea 2: (Bergen) Allow FR as normal but retreating force required to declare intended paths to "friendly" supply.

Idea 3: (Bergen et al) Normal FR. Allow the blocking force the option and chance to evade (essentially stepping aside). There is a success/failure roll for the blocking force.

Idea 4: (SVC) Allow FR but limit it to 3 hexes after which the ships would run out of supplies and be destroyed automatically.

Idea 5: Remove FR and reverting back to the original retreat priorities only.

Idea 6: (Hofner) FR force must declare a target supply point for the FR. Regardless of the number of FR battle hexes, FR force must take the shortest distance to this point. Anything that gets in the way does not get a chance to get out of the way. If the FR force goes more then it’s normal retrograde movement +1 (so 7 hexes?). If this distance is exceeded, unit is destroyed.

Idea 7: Allow FR but limit retreating force to retrograde limit of a healthy in supply unit (6 hexes) after which the ships would run out of supplies and be destroyed automatically.

Idea 8: (Getgen) Allow FR but limit retreating force to retrograde limit of a healthy in supply unit (6 hexes) after which the ships would be required to win the hex or die trying. If they win and they are out of supply they would remain and be out of supply (no option for further retreat).

Idea 9: (Bergen) Allow FR but do not allow retreating forces to deploy/use fighters (maybe PFs) during the retreat.

Idea 10: (Bergen) Allow FR but if a fleet makes it back in supply and has traveled over a certain distance (limit?) that fleet would not be resupplied at the end of the current player turn as normal.


Is that all we have out there so far?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Lar, yep, that about covers it. But as Russell pointed out, Problem #3 is that Fighting Retreat can be abused and used as an unrealistic offensive tactic.


Garth L. Getgen

By Philippe le bas (Phil) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 05:28 pm: Edit

No

Idea 11: change nothing. Nobody and nothing required the defender to put a chain of small forces in the path of the retreating force.

By Scott Hofner (Sshofner) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 05:50 pm: Edit

A question to everyone: Is the FR rules needing repair because the FR force can pinball all over the place or that they are able to cause a very limited amount of damage in any battle hex they are in? Or is it both? The original topic at Origins was just a discussion on how to limit FR movement so as to not leave it open for abuse.
I do not like the idea of an arbitrary line of death, the three hex thing. Some of the 6 or 7 hex options that have been offered aren't bad, but the more I think about them the less I like them as well. Simply saying the FR can't cause any damage in any of the battles is one, unrealistic, and two, doesn't fix the problem of the FR force being able to bounce all over the place. Which was the original problem. The issue of frigate immunity came later. With all of this being said, I think the idea of just having the FR force declare a supply point they are retreating toward, then having the FR take the shortest path possible is the simplest and best option.
As to the whole issue of it not being fair to the poor frigates, 302.77 says, "In some cases a force is blocked from its desired retreat path and may wish to fight its way out of the trap." So I don't see how you can justify the FR not doing any damage or that ships magically find options not present any where else in the game to get out of harms way.
302.77 says, "..its desired retreat path.." so making the FR force declare that path seems logical. It also says, "..may wish to fight its way out of the trap.." so fighting is to be expected. And if the opposing player used lone frigates to create the "trap" then that is the chance they take.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Putting a hex limit into FR opens the problem that FR can (and often does, in my experience) collect new ships along the way. So if you put a 3, or 6, or whatever hex limit into the rule, there will be whingeing about how "ships from hex B were destroyed because ships from hex A did FR and dragged them along for N hexes, which was clearly within hex B's ships' FR limit but not within hex A's ships' and ...."

Of the proposed suggestions, allowing the ships of the side not retreating in the hex being FR into to withdraw is probably the best. Put the option after 5-8L, and specify that the hex retreated into isn't a battle hex unless a battle was fought in it. Those two should prevent the FR force from being able to retreat again, and so both "problems" are solved.

Since the rules allow the "CON+150xFF react out of Romulus, only 6xFF must fight" thing, I don't see the problem with "defenders can withdraw against FR".

(Personally, I don't share the same objections to FR as most of the posters here.)

By Joe Stevenson (Alligator) on Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 06:30 pm: Edit

"Is the FR rules needing repair because the FR force can pinball all over the place "

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 06:38 am: Edit

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Quote:

Nobody and nothing required the defender to put a chain of small forces in the path of the retreating force.

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