The Tholian Holdfast, with the mere goal of survival within a small region, never had the need for an intricate long range logistics system that the major powers had developed. Other than potentially diverting roughly 10-15% of their yearly economy to support a single expeditionary fleet, the Tholians had little ability to make offensive strikes out of their territory.(As of 503.33)

Proposal to revise rule 503.33
With the exception of an expeditionary fleet (which still must follow Neo-Tholian restrictions of 525.72), Tholian supply from bases and captured planets is 2 hexes. From the Tholian capital, supply goes out four hexes. Also, for non-expeditionary units, supply does NOT carry over from one phase to the next. Example: Tholian ships that are in supply during movement, but then can not trace supply during combat are then unsupplied for both combat and then retrograde. Also a unit in supply for combat, but then can not trace supply at the beginning of the retrograde phase, may NOT retrograde.


Reason for proposal, often the Klingons and Romulans ignore Tholian entry into the war, let them expand their measly two hexes and put small fleets on the neighboring Starbases to deal with the maximum of 12 ships that can potentially attack. With this proposal it gives reason to actually make sure(or face potential consequences) that the Tholians are not nearly completed ignored as they currently are.

Side note: This could potentially work in civil wars for the LDR and the WYN's battle Auxes/ Pocket Battleships.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Except that the Tholians had the tech for longer range supply before they came to our galaxy. They did not lose that tech, they simply chose not to make significant use of it. Additionally, Operation Unity showed that the Tholians could project power when needed.

I think a better rule would be to require the Coalition to keep ship parity within 6 hexes of Tholian space or risk Tholian attack from turn 10 until the Selt arrive.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 08:57 pm: Edit

Just take them out sooner rather than later and be done with it...

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Sure Mike, just because you're the resident Pest Control expert...

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 10:16 pm: Edit

It's an idea... I think that the current 2-hex limit is probably justified by the fact that politically the Tholians seem unwilling to 'make waves' and draw attention to themselves. But, interpreting it as a logistics problem isn't a bad idea, and certainly adds some nice flexibility.

Dan, just because they know how doesn't mean they ever built the infrastructure to do it. The 'base in every hex' indicates a pretty strong 'fortress mentality'. That and the need rebuild a society with half the parts missing may have kept them from ever building out their infrastructure to the depth of the galactic races.

And... do you know that they had range 6 (or greater) supply in the home galaxy? We don't know how they came to power, or what the tech-level was like at the time. It's possible they did it at the level of 4PW tech, and never had a need for the 'logistical revolution' of the 160s.

Likely? Not really. But possible, and SVC and maybe Loren Knight are the only ones who know enough to say. But no matter what the home galaxy supply range, they aren't there any more, and they could well have skipped building out a robust long distance supply chain in favor of other things that help with the defense of the Holdfast.

By Grant Strong (Phoenix) on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 10:54 pm: Edit

For arguments sake you could add writers fluff that the PC/DD fusion concept created numerous matainance issues, thus needing to be in contanct with logistics more often, and the main reason the Old Galaxy Tholians didn't do it.(And in this Galaxy, while the Neo-Tholian ships are similar, the "Police" shipyard and logistical system have a difficult time keeping up with the ever so slight differences)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 11:19 pm: Edit

The Tholians most certainly can manage logistics as well as anyone. In the Home Galaxy they managed logistical situations that make anything and everything short of Operation Unity look like a shopping trip to the neighborhood supermarket. However, they had other units and greater numbers and control of their suroundings.

Any limit on the Tholians would have to be more about voluntary limits of developement of logistics support.

It is possible that had things worked out differently the Tholians might have grabbed a slightly larger territory but as many things happened their current space was exactly by choice (and the best choice).

I've discussed range of the PC/DD with Petrick and he say he is not willing to place any direct limitation on their range (nor on the Comand Modules of the Neo-Hulls). I would like to see the range of the PC/DD limited. Just look at the deck plans in CL33. Even for Tholians it's a cramped ship (and the DD even more so). Not that this isn't about speed. They should still have a operational movement of six but perhaps should have a shorter distance from a base to be in supply AND a shorter distance between stratigic nodes (four hexes?). If they are traveling with thier own supply then they operate as any other ship in supply does.
The X-version would not have this limit.

I hope someday an M81 module will be produced and I've worked very hard to write a history that will lend itself to good SFB and F&E play.

By Grant Strong (Phoenix) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 12:04 am: Edit

"Any limit on the Tholians would have to be more about voluntary limits of developement of logistics support."
Works for me, so basically something along the lines of the Tholians always had the tech to create the deluxe logistics, but with such a small territory it would have been a wasteful use of their limited funding.

Point of the matter is, It's my belief the current 2 hex restriction is a very arbitary rule. My goal is to make it possible(though very slow and difficult) for the Tholians to expand. It's a shame to see such a great fleet doing so little. Anyone who's tried to defend the major in 2518 from the Tholians on the first turn of Winds of Fire knows what I'm talking about.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 10:07 am: Edit

I see no problem in that for a free campaign. Realy all I'm saying is that 1) PC hull type ships might have a unique situation that can be overcome with proper attention and 2) you'd simply have to invest in some better logistics.

Maybe the two hex limit IS due to the PC hulls limited range (certainly not to speed). If you can send supply with the fleet and /or build supply bases every two hexes then a PC hull ship should be able to move the full normal six operation movement.

This is all speculation as I suppose this is not directly supported in the rules.

Neo-hulls should have no such range limitation except the obvious risk of putting them out of reach. OTOH, keeping them in supply would have to be via other Neo-hull support ships which don't exist in the Holdfast so maybe that's what is holding them back.

Are the Tholians capable of building the support ships for offensive logistics? I can see no technological reason why not. But if they were to start I'd bet the Klingons and the Romulans would get wind of it and perhaps be forced to attack (and the Feds might not choose to stop them seeing the same threat).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 10:22 am: Edit

I should note that what I have to say is an educated guess and carries nothing "official". SVC and/or SPP are the "Official Word" givers.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 11:43 am: Edit

Yes, but you are better 'educated' than the rest of us on the Tholians....

(Poke, poke, finish up PD Tholians! )

My real point was that I could easily believe that the Tholians had never really built out their long-range logistics structure in favor building out their defensive network and getting/keeping their fleet up to strength.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Well, the official word from SVC is that the stratigic limit to Tholians in F&E is that they a designed as a defensive force and that there is no and will be no reduced stratigic range for the PC class hulls. The PC will have normal operational movement as any warship now and in the future.

So, this means to me that the Tholians are capable of producing the logistics needed to be offensive and only have chosen NOT to in order to focus entirely on maximum defense.

SVC did not say in particular but I figure that this means in a free campaign Tholians are free to act offensively without restriction (given mutual player approval).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Its mostly a matter of forcing the tholian mindset on players who would abuse them for non-tholian objectives. To do what the tholians need to do, they dont need to go any further, and it's not in the tholian interest to do so.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Grant,

The limit you suggest wouldn't make Tholian expansion slow or difficult. It would make expansion possible and easy. Due to the small size of the Tholian fleet they would have to move slowly anyway, but with the WEB rule they would be able to push every 3 turns and just slowly eat up space.

This could take us back to the never attack the Tholians mindset.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 09:03 pm: Edit

What is the module and rule number that limits Tholian stratigic advances?

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 09:09 pm: Edit

2K core rules

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Quote:

(503.33) Tholian ships may not move more than two hexes outside of Tholian territory (including Neutral Zone Hexes), and then only if at War.
(503.331) The Tholians may send one fleet [within the limits of (411.7)] outside of this limit if the Tholians are allied to another player or alliance. Ships can be sent to this fleet to replace losses, but must enter a hex containing a ship of the Expeditionary Fleet during the same Movement Phase that they leave Tholian (503.331) The Tholians may send one fleet [within the limits of (411.7)] outside of
this limit if the Tholians are allied to another player or alliance. Ships can be sent to this fleet to replace losses, but must enter a hex containing a ship of the Expeditionary Fleet during the same Movement Phase that they leave Tholian space. If the expeditionary fleet remains within supply range of Tholian bases in Tholian territory, the supply surcharge of (411.74) is not imposed.

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 10:20 pm: Edit

Thanks Tim.